To think that emailing your colleagues from hols is a toxic behaviour

[Isthatrue]

I have a couple of people in my team (Managers) who are unable to switch off when on leave and constantly email and send message on Teams even when on leave. I am not talking about 1 follow up on an important matter but more of a proper back and forth on stuff that can easily wait and doesn’t need them to be involved. I can’t stand it! I think it’s a) sad to see they are unable to switch off from work and relax and b) creates a toxic culture for which some people think it is expected to be connected even if technically on leave.

Am I the only one to feel p.ss.d off about this?

Or @ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees there is a sixth option:

people whose working lives would be so difficult and unpleasant when they got back from holiday if they had ‘totally switched off’ that they prefer to check in for ten mins a day for peace of mind.

that’s certainly the category I - and most other senior people I know - fall into.

I'm not even going to read the posts but I can tell you that it would be deemed toxic . This has come up in a work tribunal before and it was noted as unacceptable in the recommendations along with emails being sent after other team members working hours ... even if you are not expecting them to action them ... they should be on schedule sends .

In my workplace when someone is on holiday their out of office is on , they have already completed an adequate handover and it is deemed unacceptable to message those on holiday or those on holiday to message teams in offices .

I think we must be imagining very different scenarios here, or at least I hope so. Ignoring your boss emailing you about a work thing while you are at work- and worse, insulting them first- would certainly get you sacked in my industry (at least if you did it more than once). And I'm not sure how you'd decide they're just being an "overbearing arse" if you're ignoring them. You're at work- do your work.

The way to deal with poor management is by raising it (for example, as 360 feedback or to HR or whatever the system is where you work) not by behaving like a brat and ignoring work-related emails.

I'm senior too and used to think like that but I refuse to do it anymore.

I think that if the team around me are sufficiently trained and experienced, they can cope without my input for two weeks. If I died or was seriously ill, they would have to manage.

If there's a problem, then there's a real issue with succession planning,contingency plans etc that the company should address.

My work also isn't truely valued if I supplement others while I'm away. My contribution taken for granted etc. It's important to me that others see what's difficult when I'm not there.

Work get 100% of me while I'm at work, often more but if I'm away then I deserve to be away. Switching off fully is just as important.

I wouldn't work somewhere where I was never expected or permitted to switch off during annual leave. That's not healthy and my private life will always be more important than my professional life.

If a team is managed properly it runs itself and no one really notices when the manager is missing. All those lazy managers who appear to do nothing all day are actually really good at their jobs

It’s literally happened this weekend, got a msg on Saturday from my boss expecting me to send work through to her before today (day booked off today) she said wasn’t needed until this Thu. It’s not complete as it’s complex but she expected to me send it on my weekend and complete it. I did not send it completed.

I’ve worked in a more senior role in a huge multinational corporation and no one would expect this.

Doesn't bother me - it's their holiday they are wasting, and they know that behaviour won't be forthcoming from me.

Also, in our company, if you're out of the country and try to log in to Teams or Outlook, it triggers an investigation by IT security, which takes about an hour to resolve, so it's just not worth it.

No it really pisses me off. It creates a culture where others do the same and when I don’t choose to engage with meetings after 5pm it’s met with an attitude of “well we was planning to meet so you’re hindering our plans”. Some people seem to find it funny lkke “oh you know me I never stop” and I just think oh get a fucking life Sandra 😂.

@ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees I didn’t say my team wouldn’t cope without me, they’d be just fine. But I would have an incredibly stressful and tough couple of weeks both before and after going on holiday that would negate the relaxing effect of the holiday.

I honestly have a ‘don’t judge until you’ve walked a mile in my shoes’ attitude towards this I’m afraid. None of us know what others’ jobs or life situations are, or how we’d respond in someone else’s place.

I’m 100% confident my team know they don’t have to check in on holiday, and they don’t. I do, and unless/until they are doing my job, with its accompanying level of financial risk and reward, they don’t know what they would and wouldn’t do.

I think this is it isn’t it. They think it’ll fall apart without them 😂

Boundaries are really important. The minute they slip people are ready to take advantage and their unreasonable expectations start to climb.

I think it's sad that people go on holiday with their families and still want to check their work emails every day making some excuse that it's less stressful then checking lots of emails when they get back. Checking emails is literally the least stressful thing I can imagine, it might be annoying that there are so many but it's really not stressful. Some people just can't step away and will make any excuse for it - I think that's really sad that they can't just focus on their family.

Surprised so many places allow this from a risk, information governance and security perspective. My work don't allow devices to be taken abroad far too much risk involved for them.

It's completely up to you what you do.

I'm only offering an opinion. I'm not trying to dictate what other people do on their personal time.

I just don't understand how it could be healthy to operate this way and why there isn't cover or back up or any support.

What would actually happen if you were in a situation that contact wasn't possible at all?

To me, it's a business risk if a company or team cannot function adequately without one person being there or being contactable at all times.

@cathyj77 totally with you on this. There's a difference between being a middle manager, micromanaging delivery projects and being a strategic leader of the organisation. The latter might be someone who is managing in an imperfect or incomplete system but still wants to ensure that massively important decisions happen the right way.

For example I had four members of my leadership team off sick at the same time, a couple of years back. We obviously had good contingency but, shock horror, the team wasn't perfectly built at that point. We had to rely on people who were maybe a bit risky when it came to really getting stuff done and holding it the right way. I had a few days leave during that time. There way no way I was going to just ...not check anything. The accountability was with me. People might literally not have been paid, or there might have been a safeguarding issue.

As pps have said, if you don't understand that sometimes you need to make a call like that, you probably haven't done those roles.

If I was genuinely out of action then, as I said above, my team would cope just fine.

But to spend literally 10 mins a day checking in for urgent things (ie a total of about one hour’s work in a week long holiday) makes my life massively easier and does not in any way mean I don’t switch off or focus on my family during this time.

Plus, I love my job. I’m genuinely interested to see how certain things go. When I’ve worked in jobs I’ve hated, I’ve totally switched off.

Thanks @Immemorialelms - thought it was just me!

it is very hard to explain without outing myself why my job occasionally requires checking in. But the bottom line is, my job is on the line if things go badly and I have a huge amount to gain financially in years when things go well. Plus I genuinely care about what I do as a job. 10 mins a day on hols seems a pretty small price to pay for all of that…

My area manager went to Florida for two weeks and rang us every other day when he got up at 7am to check everything was OK.

To me, it's a business risk if a company or team cannot function adequately without one person being there or being contactable at all times.

THIS

I think it shows people are insecure. Also the company will suffer from stifled innovation and change if no one will take a proper break. When do they step back and gain perspective?

So people email, sure weird to me on on holidays but I don't need to be a drama hoover

There is why so many people are burnt out! We’ve made ourselves too contactable and there are no boundaries anymore. We had a work WhatsApp which i had to mute and archive the second I left work.

Absolutely agree everyone should step back and gain perspective. The thing is, it never seems to be the quiet moment when that can happen, during the holiday! You can have a few days maybe but something might pop up. Not every holiday obviously, as then you'd question your own delegation skills.

But I have found I get my perspective and sneaky time off on, say, a Tuesday afternoon when suddenly everything is quiet, rather than necessarily in my official holiday.

I think you’re unreasonable because whether or not they are on holiday, you are at work. If they were at work, you would be expected to interact with them, so it is irrelevant. It might even work out to be useful to you.

Your decision about whether or not to work on holiday, is yours. Nobody can force you to do it. Just communicate this clearly, put an out of office on with contacts and do not log on. If you choose to work on holiday, that’s on you.

It's incredibly bad practice but some people actually enjoy being a martyr.

My company have a policy now that we are not allowed to take any IT equipment abroad. Anyone attempting to connect to our network from abroad is blocked.

Actual holiday is really important for wellbeing.

My company is the same for regulatory reasons. We had a new colleague who logged on during her holidays (fortunately in the UK before her flight) and my boss had to remind her that if she did it whilst abroad it would be an instant disciplinary.

Personally it made me think she didn't trust us to handle work in her absence. I think this type of presenteeism is indicative of either being an inefficient worker or being incapable of setting realistic timescales and boundaries around your workload.

I was thinking about this just a few days ago. And in particular how many of my colleagues had the MS Teams green tick against the white background showing (ie when people have an out of office message on but they’re online anyway).

It seems sad to me that so many people can’t or won’t switch off. And while I’ve heard senior managers say they’d never expect junior staff to check emails on their annual leave it’s sending very mixed messages when they do it so much themselves. “Deeds not words“ is needed!