Poverty trap? What to do

[Duckingfun]

I’m on benefits due to having a disabled child who currently isn’t in school.
I want to work, when he’s at a suitable school I will be looking for work. However my rent has now increased in my council house to just under £1k there is no way I can afford it if I work. The better off website says I will be something like £90 a month better off, I want to work but I don’t want to work 40+ hours a week for £90 and then I’d be worse off after travel/childcare etc
Whats the answer? I can’t move and it just feels so unfair that the council raise the rent to the top limit of what they can.

What I know is it is not rare for carers to not be able to work. Not being able to work is not a rare exception. I also know it is not rare for DC to not be attending a school. I know it is not rare for DC who have previously attended school to now need EOTAS. I know some medically complex DC do attend school. I know UC childcare element isn’t available to single carers and that the LHA doesn’t apply to council tenants. I know that the figure may be slightly reduced from the UC calculation if the OP has deductions for debt/overpayments/advanced payment etc.

I think you're banging your head against a brick wall Willyouputyourcoaton. I also work in this line and agree with everything you've said. Those that are agreeing with the OP seem to be on the defensive due to having similar obstacles. The shouting that you're mean/lack empathy etc etc is just another version of BeKind ie saying truthful things that show me in a poor light makes you the worst of us

The idea that you can drive (note, the OP doesn't actually drive anyway and public transport in the area is woeful) from one end of Norfolk to the other in 1.5 hours is hilarious!

I had to regularly drive from just over the Suffolk border to JPH twice a day while my mum was ill (terrible hospital btw) and most days it took nearly an hour. It's 16 miles. When mum had to do it herself before she became an inmate, er in patient, it was two busses which regularly failed to appear. Or a £40 taxi which you had to book or wait an hour for.

Luckily there was a volunteer community transport scheme she sometimes used.

Thanks, it's no different to what we sometimes encounter at work, as I'm sure you know all too well. I know "I'm" right on the financials because there is no error for wrong on the financials. Except of course it's not me being right. It's the government calculator. The only think I can think is maybe she has a partner with income causing a huge reduction in a joint award, which would be quite the thing to omit from this thread and claim that calculations were wrong because of it. Who knows. She's certainly not going to say why.

With regard to the rest and the "obstacles" you're spot on. All we can hope is that people who will actually take heed of the correct information may stumble across this thread and realise what can very much be done.

Incidentally we just won an award for "outstanding contribution" in this field (so you might know who we are). Keep up the good work too x

If the OP should have more benefits than she does, that surely means that swapping benefits for work would make even less sense?

Which was the point of the threat, not for people to pile on her about what benefits she gets.

Interesting. I used to daily commute from almost bang on the Suffolk border, to Great Yarmouth. That was 50 miles so not starting at the same point at the border (51.4miles to be exact, hello mileage claim form ingrained in my memory) and on a good run I'd do it in 55 mins, I guess a bad day was 1hr 15. JPH is 3 miles away from there.

You covered 16 miles in an hour? It's not Central London. Must be one hell of a 16 miles I guess.

Yes.

I went every day, often twice a day, for nine months. Then my mum died. Why would I lie about it? It drove me bloody insane. The best time was about forty minutes. When I was called in to agree to her having an emergency op it took so long (I left the house immediately) they called me twice more to check I was on my way. I don't live there but I stayed at my mum's house while she was in hospital.

You're doing a great job is calling everyone on this thread liars. I am aware that Suffolk and Norfolk are not central London, no idea why you would say that, except general rudeness. Funnily enough I come from London and it is far easier and quicker to get around that Norfolk.

I've just checked Google maps, it's 18 miles.

Because it's not a swap. It's been clearly explained to OP what she can earn before her UC gets adjusted by someone who works for the DWP. And what she can earn (allowing a deductible for nursery fees) in order to keep her CA as well, by myself.

OP thinks this is fantasy (a simple Google will very carefully explain exactly the same) and has decided she would definitely be working for £2.80 an hour.

It's very hard to advise, because partly she doesn't want to know, and partly because she's not giving correct information as she states she receives £1000 less than the information she had given would provide. Again, anyone can see this by running the online calculator (and using most Norfolk postcodes as the address). The same one we run day in day out at work.

I wonder the point of the thread too. She wants to know how to work and not lose significant benefits. This has been answered. She doesn't accept the answers.

Um...I didn't call you a liar. You're probably just as surprised that I could drive 51 miles across Norfolk in 55 minutes, as I am that it took you just under an hour to do 16 (18?) miles to almost the same end destination. Clearly very different roads.

She wants to know how to work and not lose significant benefits.

Nope, you have not accepted her position. It's not only about losing benefits, it's also about the cost of additional child care (if her son does get a school) and the fact that even when he is in school, like when he was previously, she had so many appointments and calls from the school that it made working very difficult (which she knows from when she tried to volunteer).

She doesn't have to post an exact breakdown of her figures.

She's had some useful help, doing some training is probably her best plan right now. But also seeing working now, even if the net financial benefit is very small, as part of a plan for the future.

Btw why do you only work 19 hours? What ‘obstacles’ do you have? Some people with disabled kids work fulltime. What excuses do you have?

It make me laugh when people start a job and act like they know it all. You have been there seven months. Seven months!! That is nothing. That "outstanding contribution" award was very little to do with you. You clearly resent the group you work with so maybe go back to your finance job. Better for everyone. Or are there ‘obstacles’ in your way? Work in that job for a couple of years and you might get a feel for it and lose your (to put it kindly) naive evangelism.

People who have fled DV will be naturally cautious of further upheavals for their families. Starting again in a new area is onerous for anyone, never mind people who have been traumatised. The psychology of trauma is very complex.

I have worked as a consultant psychiatrist for over 25 years. Paid huge amounts of tax. Full time NHS. Never sick. Yet I have empathy for those who cannot work. And I deal with vulnerable people. Yes some of them might be better working. But very few are ‘lazy’. Many simply don’t feel empowered to take the next steps and lack support. A well-meaning worker giving tips once a month may not be enough for people to take that leap.

I think you need to look at why you only work 19 hours before you start berating others. Life is not that simple is it?

Anyway you have given advice in detail. The OP is free to take or leave it. And you are free to keep pushing your point like your life depends upon it and looking like a dickhead, or take a break. 🤷🏼‍♀️

She wants to know how to work and not lose significant benefits. This has been answered. She doesn't accept the answers.

Actually it was nothing to do with benefits. It was about feeling trapped in poverty because working means a huge financial struggle and how unfair it is for landlords (private or otherwise) to increase the rent so much. I have accepted the answers of doing some training or working part-time. From posters who have actually been helpful.
You seem obsessed with my finances, ‘my story’ isn’t made up and having done the calculation I should be getting £2800 which is £33,600 a year. I’m not getting that so I’ll investigate as to what has gone wrong there. According to the same calculator working 16 hours a week means I would be £100 better off. That’s the equivalent of £6.25 an hour. So going back to the initial post, there is such a thing as a poverty trap and it’s very difficult to try and do what’s best when I want to work but after travel I’m working for nothing. Lots of people are in the same situation and I want to work but it’s not easy.
’

Happy to answer. I don't need to "look at" why I work 19hrs a week. There's a very specific reason. As I was explaining to OP.

In order to still qualify for CA, I need to earn under £602 pcm. However if you have childcare costs you can deduct the whole amount of this from your earned income, limited up to 50% of your total monthly earnings value. Therefore, working 19hrs I take home £1029, but I'm only assessed as earning just under £600 when you deduct my childcare costs from that £1029. 20hrs would tip me over onto something like £608. That additional hour and £6 on my payslip would lose me the full amount of £332 carers a month. So 19hrs is my maximum. To work full time, 37.5hrs per week, I would take home something like £1771. No carers. To work 19hrs a week, I take home £1361. So, I'd be working double the hours, an extra 80hrs per month, for £410. My first 19hrs earn me £1361. The next 18.5 would earn me £410. It's not worth me doing that, I save it in (double) nursery fees by being at home those days.

There's an "optimal point" for everyone. And yes, I'd still earn more being full time. But only marginally more than doing 50% of those hours. And as OP says, it's quite tiring having disabled DC, so you weigh up if the small value add on is worth the disproportionately large increase in hours. I get £1029 in my bank plus CA. There are other deductions you can make from CA, I can't recall these of the top of my head, but Google will tell you.

As OP doesn't have nursery costs (I believe she said she just had funded hours so will just call it zero costs) she needs to stay under the £602 pcm to keep her CA. There's also an amount she can earn before any deductions to her UC are made, I can't remember it off the top of my head but it's around £379 as she receives rent assistance via UC. They don't deduct £ for £ it's a %age. It's more if you don't have rent assistance. So there's a number of hours/point up to which it makes absolute sense to work, and point after where it doesn't so much. OP is picking scenarios where it doesn't make sense as her examples of not being worth her working.

I should be getting £2800 which is £33,600 a year.

To be fair, the previous poster was referring to what that would be as a gross salary. I earn about £48k gross and take home around £3k, so she's about right on the gross (I actually earn loads more than this but put a significant amount into the pension and buy holiday to reduce tax).

I'm not sure why people need to compare benefits to gross salaries though, there's no link, it's not relevant.

So, I'd be working double the hours, an extra 80hrs per month, for £410. My first 19hrs earn me £1361. The next 18.5 would earn me £410. It's not worth me doing that

So, the poverty trap the OP is talking about then?

Well, thanks to my "obsession" with your finances (as opposed to just pointing out repeatedly your calcs didn't add up despite your rude insistence we were randoms off the internet talking fantasy talk?), and other PP taking the time to manually list it out for you, turns out, your calculation looks wrong.

And you appear to be entitled to much more than you are currently receiving.

You're welcome

Oh and the online calculators aren't sophisticated enough to work out adjustments to CA to provide an assessable amount. They'll just do basic UC calcs. The CA calc is exactly as I've described. Without having all your information I can't tell you your "optimum point" but you will have one, £379 pcm is a good place to start for nothing to be affected. £602 and you will still be significantly better off. But y' know don't believe a random off the internet. Try googling it, test it yourself like the benefits calculator. Might even turn out we were right about that too...

I appreciate the complexities of your care responsibilities - but surely the ‘poverty trap’ won’t go away without a long term solution to work? Even £100 better off a month is one step closer to eventually earning more.

Appreciate it’s not possible atm as your DS is not at school but for me:

£100 better off a month + prospects for career progression + gaining experience

is way better than

£100 worse off a month + not gaining experience + CV gap.

IMO that extra £100 a month is worth more than just the extra cash. But that’s just my opinion!

Exactly 🙈

Ok thanks. So there is a financial reason you don’t choose to work full-time. Same as the OP chooses not to work at the moment. Same argument.

I think when I know more about what’s going on with dd and ds is in a school and doing well I’d think similarly. At the moment though it’s like working in a dead end job stacking shelves and having the energy to provide care when I’m not at work. I like pp suggestion of training or studying so when I hopefully can go to work I can start somewhere with room to grow.

Hardly.

I am "trapped" earning over £1000 a month plus £330 CA for working half a week. As I said, if I were to be a single woman and put in my UC claim now, my wages plus CA, CB, council tax reduction, rent paid, DLA, childcare reimbursement, would net over £4k. The same as someone on circa £70kpa, whilst I do half a week. Trapped? Really? It astonishes people to hear the equivalent salaries, but it is very much the reality.

And yes, OP isn't getting that the £50k salary is gross, and net to net is the comparable amount hitting the banks. But at least it's finally sinking in that her UC claim doesn't match the circumstances she states and she's looking into it. Hopefully she gets the right amount soon.

I mean if that's all you can interpret despite what is written...

OP is only picking "no work" in her calcs because 16hrs wouldn't benefit her. Ignoring that 15hrs might. Or maybe 12. She will have an optimum point. And that optimum point isn't nil hours. It's never nil hours.

She is not doing the 15 hours she could. Like you are not doing the extra 21 hours you could. The exact numbers are irrelevant. Same principle in my eyes. You could do more.

Also, OP, have you applied to:

The Norfolk Assistance Scheme
Family Fund
Norfolk Short Breaks
(If you are on prepayment meter) Fuel vouchers
Local organisations providing Cash4Kids funding
Your closest Nourishing Norfolk food hub

Thousands worth of support you can claim/savings you can make, some specific to Norfolk, some not.

I can't help it's the same principle in your eyes when it's not.

She's not looking at the 15hrs (or whatever it may be) which would greatly benefit her. Nor the additional 22.5 that wouldn't.

I am doing the 19hrs that greatly benefit me. Not the additional 18.5 that wouldn't.

Correct, we could both work double (or maybe even triple/quadruple for OP) to barely benefit. That's not the point, nor the "trap".

£1000 is a massive difference when someone is claiming they can't afford their future rent (which happens to be just under £1000). It is the very difference between being "trapped" or not.