School detention for forgetting a ruler?

[Wizardo]

Just interested - how many people have secondary school aged kids whose school gives a detention for forgetting basic equipment like a ruler?

I wonder does it really teach kids to be organised. Surely it just means disorganised people get lots of detentions? And feeds anxiety?

My schooling in the 90s felt pretty strict but this seems borderline bonkers. My dd currently “can’t borrow a school library book for the rest of the year” as she’s so anxious about getting a detention because she handed her last book in two weeks late. So now we are visiting our local library instead to provide her with books to read! I have obviously told her to just get the detention over and done with but she is adamant and determined to avoid it.

vote Yabu for No detention given
and Yanbu for Detention given.

It's weird because I've never been made to stay an hour later at work because I've forgotten something.

One problem is that not all SEN gets diagnosed. Some children struggle without realising why and are always in trouble. It builds up until they hate going to school because of high anxiety. Then they get forced in and punished again and again for every small mistake which just makes everything worse.

No, because teachers go round the class issuing stamps and positive comments every lesson. They are already doing this so issuing a negative instead of a positive stamp is easy.

Time? Their parent also has ADHD (likely!) They lose things regularly or misplace them so going through a bag once a day isn't actually enough?

It's really not as simple as you think

But surely there will be other consequences. A deadline is missed? Someone else can't do their task until you've done your bit?

You will get a lot of posters saying "for want of a ruler, the school was lost", but I can't think that it's surprising that so many children are anxious or school-avoidant at the moment given that many schools nowadays seem to take an excessively punitive approach that comes at the expense of nurturing. Is this an environment we'd choose for ourselves as adults?

My older DC complained bitterly about lesson time wasted with others who had no pens - even if they just got given one lesson before.

They brought in detentions for not having equipment most teachers are reasonable. My DC cope by having stuff always in bags - and checking every morning and having a house full of spares.

So while I agree it sounds draconian - my kids say not having pens is much less an issue and much less time is wasted - also get regular parental reminders on what they should have.

I think a ruler is less vital - but perhaps it's a crack down on pupils not having basic equipment.

Yeah, for sure. But they're natural consequences and they're things you have to deal with, yourself. As a child getting told to stay for an hour for forgetting a ruler isn't a natural consequence. The natural consequence would be you can't complete the straight line or whatever it is.

Plus many people with neuro diversities will specifically choose to work in places that interest them and therefore it's much easier to actually concentrate and focus on that thing. They care about the thing and will hyperfocus on it.

School is often not the "thing" for a lot of people myself included.

This is for some neuro diverse kids..some absolutely thrive at school. Some not so much!

I think it is a good rule to have, but I think a good teacher will normally ignore it, which sounds somewhat contradictory but isn’t.

Teaching is all about setting a good example and it is very hard to support a teacher who has asked to borrow a calculator as they have forgotten theirs and then to punish a child for exactly the same thing.

The kind response to a child who has forgotten something is to model good behaviour and help them.

But…..there are children who totally take advantage of this goodwill and just decide to never bring essentials to lessons. These are the ones who need detentions.

A good teacher knows their pupils well enough to know which of the above categories they fall into.

So what if that equipment is a pen?
The school I worked in, some of the pupils would have thought nothing of saying that they couldn't do any work as they didn't have a pen. So let's fast forward to that natural consequence that the child fails as they've done no work. As a teacher I'm then asked what did I do about it. I don't think saying i let the child suffer the natural consequences would cut it somehow. I would be expected to follow school policy. Which in this case would be detention.

It's not buying "a few spare rulers" is though?

Say you buy 5 for each class, multiplied by 10 classes. Then they got lost within 2 weeks... You have to buy more...

And why just rulers? You'd then have to have spare pencils, protractors, erasers, paper, pens, calculators - for the whole school... multiple times a year.

That's because the direct natural consequence of having no equipment is that you can't do your work (perhaps at all if it's a pen, or to the accepted standard if it's a ruler) but that is a positive outcome for most children and one that would reinforce itself so the school can't practically use that can it?

You can actually work it in to a natural consequence if you want to explain it to your child with an extra step - you don't have your equipment - you can't do your work - you get a detention for not doing any work.

Most schools obviously want to try to mitigate the middle step (hence the buying and lending) as they care about children's education (more than some students and parents sadly) and are held accountable for any failing therein (again more than students and parents sadly).

Parents are really much better placed to deal with any equipment issues in almost all cases as they have the time to address this with their children the night before when there is still time and opportunity to help. Again it just seems to be another thing some write off as the school's problem.

I'm not blaming you as the teacher. You're doing what you're told.

I blame the businessman who make the rules because that's what lots of schools are now.

As a parent I'd rather pay x amount to ensure there was sodding stationary than my child be penalised for forgetting or losing something.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't check if he'd got a pen or provide them, of course I would. But these things happen and it's insane to me the level of punishment for such minor things.

I really feel it has a negative effect. It doesn't mean children respect teachers they fear them, they don't love school they hate it. It's like the Victorian times it wouldn't surprise me if they brought back the cane sometimes.

Yes, because that's what's wrong with the neurodiverse isn't it - they're just too fucking stupid to have worked out a system. 🙄

I doubt 700 set of parents would agree.... They'd insist on not paying

I went to a poor school in an under deprived area in the early noughties. In each form of 30 there were 2-5 pupils who never knew what day of the week it was, whether we were on week A or B of the two week rota. They didn't know if they had maths or pe that day and didn't know what rooms any of the subjects were in.
They never had their books they never had a pen or any other stationery or their pe kits. Some had a TA who provided everything for them. It did disrupt my learning. I did grow resentful that classes were disrupted for endless pens and equipment especially when they turned up late stinking of smoke.
When we got to GCSEs and the year was split up differently the top sets were lovely as there was rarely more than one of these types of kids. The lower sets were carnage as these kids far outnumbered those that were engaging with the school.

The attitude of the pupil generally dictated how the teacher responded. "I'm sorry miss, I have forgotten my pen or left in tiny earlier class, could I please borrow a pen for the lesson" got much better responses than "miss give me a pen"

It is disruptive and it won't be just the teachers annoyed

Side note... I had to loan my boss a sheet off paper and a pen on Monday when he forgot to bring a notebook saying "I never bring one but I usually need to write a note"

If they'd rather their children couldn't borrow equipment and have detention that's absolutely fine.

@Chocolatebuttonns ,

But it doesn’t quite work like that.

If the school has spares, that is actually a disincentive to bother to equip your children.

It is also an additional burden on teachers, who become equipment monitors. They need to count the kit out and make sure it comes back. And, if it doesn’t, they are blamed.

My DC is ND and so are we! It is a family routine to pack all our bags the evening before which is not always easy, I can tell you. But we do it. Sometimes, we forget something. Sometimes, whole PE kits disappear. It is frustrating.

But from a school/teaching perspective, equipment is not always respected by pupils and it is not possible for teachers to provide stationery. So as hard as it seems, we have sucked up the detentions on the rare occasions they have been issued. (Teachers have been aware and understanding about ND)

It's a tricky one as the collective have to be punished for the disrespectful minority as with all of the strict rules.

It's really not. In the same way if you have spare clothes it not an incentive to get dirty. It's a back up. Things that many of us use in every day life.

They are clearly already doing that plus giving detentions so I don't really see the difference except they wouldn't be giving detentions. I mean, it's worked for decades until now.

My sons school issued detentions for forgetting equipment.

I didnt mind the rule particularly and think it probably helps lessons run better if most people are equipped.

my minor gripe was you had to have a standard set of equipment, even if you didnt have the lesson that used it that day So noone learned to think about what they needed and plan.

My other issue was that it was the same level sanction as doing things like pinging bra straps /sending nasty messages.

You'd need a supermarket style daily delivery system to keep up.

If only 2 people per class forget/lose one single item, that's 2 items x 6 lessons x 5 days × 38 weeks = £2280 at £1 per item (nominal amount to account for rulers, calculators, pens, pencils, protractors costing more or less).

It's nearer 6-10 kids per lesson when things are given out and 4-5 things at a time for a lot of them.

And boxes of supplies get stolen from rooms/cupboards regularly.

@Chocolatebuttonns ,

That analogy doesn’t work at all. No one wants to dress in someone else’s spare clothes. A ruler, however, is just a ruler. And not having to buy it or carry it around is a plus, not a minus.

There is an argument for the school supplying all equipment and kids not having to carry it around. But that does just cost money, in very very tight budgets (trust me here!) and also delays lessons at the beginning and end. And, most importantly, equipment monitoring isn’t really a teacher’s job, except for specialist equipment, but then there are generally lab techs to help.

If you had ever worked in a school, you would know what you propose just wouldn’t work.

But why wouldn't you help your child to develop some way of remembering the items they need rather than just throwing money at the problem? This would serve them them far better in the whole life beyond school when they won't always have someone else to manage this for them and will have to suffer the consequences.

For example if they become a tradesperson who continually forgets or loses their tools they will waste money, get a bad reputation and lose custom. Taking responsibility for the stuff you need, looking after it and replacing it as and when is an important life skill we all need, it's much easier learnt when young and the worst consequence is just a detention.

Forgetful people can be helped to learn ways to manage this by always keeping things in the same places, checking at set points throughout the day (night before, leaving home, end of lessons, etc).

Surely we're doing children a disservice by just throwing up our hands? Even in the case of special needs, doesn't that just mean they need more support to learn at home and in the classroom not just to have this task outsourced for them? I can't see how that isn't just setting them up to fail when they leave school and it all falls on their shoulders. Unless of course they are likely never going to live independently then important life skills like this are essential.