Thinking that this should be illegal?

[TyrannasaurusJex]

Basically musing over this article - https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/19/call-midwife-freebirthing-nhs-crisis-unmedicated-medical-support
I get nervous when a friend says they want a homebirth anyway, but to choose not to have any kind of trained medical professional or equipment with you when giving birth is, I think, tantamount to child neglect. Yes women can do what they want with their bodies but putting an innocent baby's life at serious risk because you've been sucked into the 'freebirth' movement? Despicable.

People are free to make their own choices so I don't get judgy about what other people do. I wouldn't do it myself though. And that was before I had my second child who would have died had he not been born in a hospital.

I don't think it should be made illegal purely because women who find themselves in a situation of giving birth alone could end up being prosecuted.

I think to do it knowingly (often following from little or no antenatal care) is foolish. Every culture since time began have had birth attendants, yet 21st century western women think they know better.

margarine. Kills more people than home child births

OK, but why put at risk a baby's life just because someone wants it like that when there is a much safer method a few miles away

In poor countries people pray to have a baby in a hospital as often only the well-off can afford that - why do you think that is?

How long have you been waiting to use that?

I think if you've deliberately and publicly stated that you've chosen not to have a professional present and your baby dies then there's a very good chance you'd get charged with murder/infanticide anyway.

tell me you didn't bother to read the article without telling me....

Oh well, that's fine then!

We aren't talking about home births anyway, where there will be a HCP in attendance. This is freebirthing, people doing everything themselves which is a very different thing.

I don't think it should be illegal, but it should be absolutely made clear how dangerous this is. Unfortunately I think it will take a tragedy for these idiotic people to understand the risks they are taking.

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Making it illegal is highly impractical and risky. What if baby arrives very fast, or is someone lives very rurally, or a midwife doesn't get there in time? But I do agree, as much as I am for choice, baby's safety should come first. I know someone who had a home birth and refused to go to hospital when there were complications, and now baby has cerebral palsy because they weren't breathing, but in hospital likely it would have been sorted.

Midwife here. The actual act of free birth isn't illegal, what is illegal is if anyone attends the birth who is not a registered professional and they could be prosecuted for acting as a midwife without the requisition professional qualifications.

What makes me sad about free birth, is that these women have obviously been either so let down by our services, or are too scared to access them and we (the NHS) are obviously not meeting their needs.

What makes me sad for staff, is that sometimes we are called to attend these births in really sad circumstances, or they have got themselves to hospital much too late and the inevitable has happened.

Often there is a bit of confirmation bias 'well I did it and I was okay' but there will always be one who isn't okay.

use what?

I thought this was a thread about things that should be illegal. Unattended home births yes, margarine, yes.

I was a home birth 51 years ago. Many mothers opted to have the first in hospital then next one at home. A midwife was present. My sister actually thought I was the midwife's baby and wanted her to take me home.

Re margarine, it’s not just about deaths is it. Catastrophic injuries and disabilities can occur to mother and baby that don’t result in death. Even small events can have life-long impacts

What margarine? You can’t buy actual margarine these days. And home births are a different thing.

Anyway. The problem with making it illegal would be that you would have people lying about their situation. We’ve all heard stories of a woman giving birth on the hard shoulder or car park because they didn’t get to the hospital in time. So what is to stop someone determined to free birth not just failing to tell people she had gone into labour?

Also, how and when would you prosecute? Lock up a mother with a newborn? Fine her?

If this is made illegal then I think lack of pre natal care probably should be too, along with an absolute ban on smoking and illegal drugs during pregnancy. Its a can of worms, for example if it was illegal but the baby was ok then legally the mother would either be fined or have to go to prison, with devastating consequences for the new born.

Kills people how? Please enlighten me on the dangers of margarine!

Re people saying it'd be too hard to police, I think it would be quite easy to differentiate between someone whod been planning an assisted birth and were caught short as an ambulance was on the way from people who had repeatedly refused medical assistance.
With regards to what the punishment would be, that is obviously tricky but how is any punishment decided?

As we’ve seen with the abortion debate in the US it would be tricky to legislate this and not also criminalise edge cases - teenage girls who give birth alone or in secret, ditto for women experiencing DV, even someone who delivers after a cryptic pregnancy, or much quicker than expected. No sense in saying “We’d simply make sure that didn’t happen” because as we see in the US where women it’ll likely still happen. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/04/18/human-rights-crisis-abortion-united-states-after-dobbs

Rather than arguing against freebirthing how about arguing, very strongly, for labouring women to be treated and cared for ante-natally, in labour and post-natally with absolute dignity, continuity and tip top communication and clarity of information. To significantly improve all maternity care would have the greatest impact on women's decisions and to suppprt them to make the right ones.

Having given birth three times, I shall be giving my dil and dd the option of private maternity care. Mine was shocking 25/30 years ago. I do not want either of them to experience what I did.

No I don't think it should be illegal. I think we need to address the actual reasons women are finding themselves in this position in the first place.

It’s more sad than anything else as these women are often so traumatised after previous births. I don’t think arresting or fining women who do this is going to help anybody. Free birth is still quite rare, perhaps some more support in trying to help women who may want to do this. Home births can work for some people, definitely.

I was part of a Facebook vbac group and I was actually a bit shocked ant how anti c section it was. Some people were posting very old books saying how c sections basically meant death and should be avoided at all costs. I wanted to get a vbac (and got VERY swayed by natural birth enthusiasts but I was still happy to have a cs if needed!)
There were people ignoring doctors advice saying they weren’t suitable for a vbac and deliberately free birthing at home to avoid a c section and all the comments cheered them on! Comments about how women were tricked by doctors that they needed a c section when of course they didn’t and how it only happened because they had pain relief so can they please get advice on how to have NO pain relief next time. Not even gas and air. (Yes I know people can choose to do this but the level of shame and self blame was upsetting). Not everyone will have a great birth and it isn’t always your fault AT ALL! I mean I did everything and felt such a failure but my midwife said it was probably my pelvis shape, which made me feel better.

The worst thing I read was a woman who’d had two previous c sections and was at higher risk of scar rupture. First she’d gone over 42 weeks and was ignoring extra scans, monitoring, everything. Her waters went with loads of meconium and she stayed at home only speaking to a doula. Wouldn’t let midwives in. Even more meconium and in labour for hours. It was getting so risky an ambulance was called but the doula refused to let them in. After absolutely everything the baby was born and didn’t breathe immediately but didn’t take long and all was fine. Honestly the whole thing was terrifying to read. And all the comments? Cheering her on.

An absolute ban on drugs that are illegal anyway? XD

You couldn't have an absolute ban on smoking during pregnancy while smoking itself is legal. Women don't know they're pregnant for a few weeks at absolute minimum.

Why do you only suggest policing women in pregnancy (which leads to the idea of policing women of childbearing age, since how is she to prove she's not pregnant?)? Alcohol consumption by the father pre-conception is also linked to fetal alcohol syndome. Let's have an absolute ban on men drinking, if they're at risk of impregnating a woman.

I think this was the point. Making it illegal doesn’t work.