Thinking that this should be illegal?

[TyrannasaurusJex]

Basically musing over this article - https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/19/call-midwife-freebirthing-nhs-crisis-unmedicated-medical-support
I get nervous when a friend says they want a homebirth anyway, but to choose not to have any kind of trained medical professional or equipment with you when giving birth is, I think, tantamount to child neglect. Yes women can do what they want with their bodies but putting an innocent baby's life at serious risk because you've been sucked into the 'freebirth' movement? Despicable.

and what if it doesn't? I was in excellent health with my first boy. All went well during pregnancy, I was happy, strong, slim, fit as a fiddle. And not over apprehensive either. After a couple of hours labour, it was discovered the baby was in a difficult sideways breech position. With the best of help and support, didn't dilate and baby got distressed and emergency C section had to be done urgently. Baby would have probably died or be short of oxigen for quite some time, and I would have got badly injured.

So home birth, with midwife assistance and emergency support in case anything goes wrong. Next 2 boys born normally, but in hospital due to above.

You can't buy margarine?????

Because the amount of people who Sat margarine is higher than unassisted home births. This is not comparable in the slightest.

Actually, just googled it; margarine still available. Phew!!!!

Like I say, I wouldn't try to persuade anybody else. I know it can be a great experience, I've just not known anybody to have a successful planned home birth.
My experience is the opposite. I had a massive post partum hemorrhage with my first and needed a significant blood transfusion and shoulder dystocia with my second when my contractions stopped at 10cm and he was well and truly stuck. Without medical intervention we wouldn't be here. I know this isn't the norm, but you don't know what will happen until it happens. I don't have strong enough feelings about home births to say if they should or shouldn't be allowed. I just wouldn't want my daughters to have them.

Of course it shouldn't be illegal, because unexpectedly giving birth alone happens, birth is a very unpredictable thing, and the last thing you'd need at that time is a criminal investigation.

I don't think it should be illegal for the people who do it intentionally either. They all have their reasons and most would be solved with a dramatically improved maternity home/community options and hospitals that are safe, caring and mother-focused. Along with better care for women who are in vulnerable situations.

Bring back 121 midwives that was a wonderful service I felt so supported I had a wonderful homebirth with a midwife I had seen the entire way through my pregnancy.

My first was a midwife led unit all was textbook so I felt confident going for a homebirth.

My third was a unintentional freebirth because the services were just not there I never saw the same midwife twice they lost me through the system a few times at one point thought I was consultant led 🤷🏼‍♀️ heavily pressurising me to have a c section and not believing I labour quickly. It was really strange. In the end I laboured quickly at home without anyone but my husband. I planned to have midwives there but they didn't arrive in time one got lost with the gas and air. They didn't believe I was in progressive labour as I could talk. It was a real shambles and I'd be scared to have another pregnancy even though I have textbook births. There was a very heavy feeling that everyone around me felt births need to be very medical.

I think these freebirthing women need more support and understanding why they are choosing that. I don't think any of them are choosing to put themselves or their babies at risk as the goal. I think they are scared and feel unsupported so don't feel they have other options.

Yes one midwife who stays with you baring her own emergencies or whatever is what’s needed and wanted.

That’s one of the reasons I loved my homebirth planned pregnancies. I saw the same midwife every check up, I knew when she was going on holiday as she would let me know, she would text if doing a delivery to rearrange my appointment. Hell she engaged my toddler/s in my at home appointments getting them to measure my bump and all exited. She used the digital dopler but also had the old fashion ear on a tube one and she explained everything every step.

Not like the random at the doctors midwifes who didn’t even know your name till the appointment.

Good to see that lots of posters are looking at the bigger picture in terms of why people are making these decisions. Going into hospital isn't a neutral decision and increases the likelihood of a range of medical interventions many of which may have negative impacts on the baby or mother. Birth trauma is a significant societal issue which often is not considered when discussing this topic and why women choose to freebirth. I also think that if you make freebirth illegal then homebirth wouldn't be far behind as the medical assistance available is more limited. I read up extensively on the risks and stats for both my births and chose a hospital birth for my first labour and home birth for my second. No doubt many people think i was selfish for the homebirth but I thought about it very carefully. Labour is risky and we know that maternity services are over stretched and there are unfortunately too many baby and maternal deaths occuring in hospital. Women should have free access to information so they can make their own informed decisions. And much more funding for maternity services.

My friend’s newborn ended up in PICU for weeks because she opted for free birthing. It shouldn’t be legal.

No, it's not. Margarine (which is defined as having a fat content of over 80%) hasn't been on sale in the UK for a long time.

The items on sale that are similar are technically 'spreads', although some shops still do list them under margarine online. Presumably because a lot of people don't know the difference.

I'm sorry you went through that.

My point though, was that even if something like that had happened to me, at least at home I had a midwife with me, and I would have got immediate help.

Had it happened in the hospital, where I had been left alone for two hours, I might not have been able to go crawling to get the attention of a midwife - which is what I had to do at the point I wanted to push. Had I not done that, I could well have ended up 'freebirthing' in hospital.

I think the most important thing is to have someone that knows what they are doing there with you. I didn't have that in hospital for a significant length of time.

I have no input on women's choices tbh, but I will say I'm just into my second trimester and I've had a notification from Badger Notes App I was told to sign up to today telling me to ask my midwife about "home birthing".
I'd really rather not, it's just not for me I don't think, but the timing of that and now this thread makes me raise an eyebrow - Is home births something being encouraged/pushed to lessen the burden on the NHS I wonder????

Homebirths are the cheapest option yes

however with a home birth you don’t share your midwife the second she’s sent to you, she’s yours. She’s not leaving to check another women hers eyes are on you. The second you hit 7cm the second midwife comes again she doesn’t leave all
eyes are on you or not if that feels off putting but you get 1-1 then 2-1 care they do not leave.

Homebirths pick up problems much much faster than hospital births because of the 1-1 care. They can watch the change in your body though transition that a midwife who’s just coming in and out won’t spot or see.

Now I’m not recommending a homebirth for a first time mum with no birth history behind her, but yes it’s cheaper but you also get better care.

Thanks for all of the responses, I've read all and they're really interesting (and I'm delighted at the lack of screechy name calling that these sorts of threads can often bring out).
I was probably being a bit facetious suggesting it be made illegal but that was really to emphasise my strength of feeling on it and how much I think women should be discouraged from freebirthing. Of course in an ideal world the NHS would be vastly improved in every way, including maternity care, but while that is not forthcoming I am terrified that this practice seems to be gaining popularity as part of the 'medic-sceptic' narrative 😞

Of course but the point is not to enforce it but to disuade anyone from excluding professional help. To me it constitues non-assistance to a person in danger which is an offence.

My traumatic first birth involved being left alone in hospital for hours at a time waiting for a midwife to be assigned (not once but twice as they were that short staffed). I had 8 midwives during my labour, some for less than an hour.

My (private) home birth I had 2 midwives I knew and trusted with me throughout.

Personally I wouldn’t free birth but I am fortunate to be able to afford private care. I wouldn’t have had another child if I had to go through a hospital birth like my first again.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to fix the NHS rather than criminalise women for opting out of a dehumanising and unsafe medical environment?

You haven't done a great deal of thinking about it, have you? When policy makers think about these things they shouldn't just say THING BAD ILLEGAL. But they should think about the public good, freedom and rights, the consequences of doing nothing versus doing something, the ultimate outcomes, the prevalence, the alternatives.

If you are going to take away women's bodily autonomy, you'd better make sure there is a shit fuck ton on the other side of the scale. There isn't in this case.

On the contrary I've thought about it a huge amount. If you see my update you'll see that I've conceded that I was probably being facetious in suggesting it was made illegal but that illustrated my strength of feeling about it. I still think that if someone deliberately didn't seek medical assitance for their ill child they would be prosecuted and this freebirthing seems to be so close to that situation as to be difficult to differentiate.

What difference would it have made if the baby was born in hospital?

If the baby was poorly it would probably have been poorly regardless of how it was delivered.

Making it illegal will end up meaning many women will have criminal investigations when really they were caught short in time.

It happens a lot more than yoj think.

this freebirthing seems to be so close to that situation as to be difficult to differentiate.

Giving birth is something a woman does. It's her choice how she does it. Same as it's not illegal to drink and smoke in pregnancy and it would be illegal to give cigarettes and alcohol to your baby.

If you can't even factor in women in childbirth, you probably shouldn't say you've considered it in depth.

Look at the US. This shit leads to women being given the death penalty for miscarrying if you don't defend women's rights at every turn.

The real question has to be why are women being put off from having babies with medical assistance?
Do they understand the risk of things going wrong?

The many NHS horror stories?
Multiple MWs, lack of MNs,
The woman in the next beds husband being their 24/7. When women are feeling incredibly vulnerable?
Being expected to look after a tiny newborn alone - while your still recovering from major surgery or other painful injuries and wounds?

No other hospital ward would expect a patient to care for another patient. And not every mum has a partner who is able to stay 24hrs. (Work, other children, single mums etc)

Hospital wards need to have more Care Assistants, not necessarily fully qualified nurses or midwifes, just people who are able to help settle babies, change, nappies, let mums rest and sleep. Able to lift babies over to mum to help with getting BFing established.

You do know OP that autonomy is the first pillar of medical ethics?

Just taken time to actually read the article properly rather than skimming through;
"In fact, if you give birth in the UK today, it’s likely that you will encounter some variation of the message that unmedicated birth is the ideal form of childbirth and that interventions are to be avoided at all costs."

Apparently I'm incredibly naïve. Much more than I anticipated.

I thought this sort of narrative had been pushed out of the mainstream, I thought there wasn't supposed to be an "ideal birth", that birth is different for every woman and "ideal" depends entirely on preferences and (hopefully) lack of complications...

Being at the start of 2nd trimester with my first, this way of thinking in a main stream media outlet is... Scary.
So if I cannot give birth vaginally with 0 pain relief I'm not giving birth in an "ideal" way????
What if my body literally isn't capable of that??? As an example, I'm very petite at 4ft 11 and my DP is an extremely tall and ethnically Dutch bloke though born and raised in UK... How's that going to work?

I'm also seeing a lot of MN posts lately about being judged by medical professionals for not being able to "just get on" with BFing as if it's something you can "just do" with no issues.
The amount of judgement clearly still around is... Worrying to say the least.

What difference would it have made if the baby was born in hospital?

If the baby was poorly it would probably have been poorly regardless of how it was delivered.

There were problems during labour when one of my DC was born. Problems that were fortunately identified early enough and quickly acted on, and happily DC was fine in the end.

If I’d been in labour at home, then the delay caused by the (at least) 30 minute journey to hospital could well have meant all the difference between a healthy baby and a baby very sick or dead because of oxygen starvation.