To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

Doesn’t that depend to a large extent on the 10-year-old though? I’ve always explained everything to both my children; my daughter’s very nearly ten and does her homework every week with no debate. That’s not my parenting, that’s just who she is - some kids are naturally more argumentative than others (and the same child will accept some rules more easily than others).

I don’t know, I’ve always thought of it a bit like this. If you’re equally strict about every single rule, your children won’t know which ones are serious (like safety ones) and which ones are just rules for rules’ sake. If you really enforce the important ones but leave a bit of wiggle room on the others, they know which boundaries not to push, because they know you really mean it with those ones. It’s been my experience so far that if you explain most things (and I don’t mean endless debate, I mean “we do this for this reason”), on the occasions when you have to say “sorry but you’ll just have to take my word for it on this one”, they accept it, because they trust that you’re not just setting rules for the sake of it the rest of the time.

Course I don’t have teenagers yet so I may well be eating my words in a few years’ time…

Ok. Here's an example of gentle parenting from an absolutely bonkers gentle parent at my daughter's school with a very out of control child, badly behaved child. He had a bit of a fixation with my daughter and used to try and squeeze her very very tightly around the neck (a hug apparently) I'll call the child Damien for examples sake. We were outside school, mum chatting to a friend, ignoring his crazy behaviour as usual. Damien, meanwhile is squeezing my daughter my daughter quite tightly round the neck, with a sadistic smile on his face. Rose "Mummy mummy, it's so tight, it's too tight. Please get off" Damien's mum "that's very kind of you to give Rose a hug darling, but I think she's saying it's a bit too hard" Me "Damien, please it's too tight, you need to let go." Rose "I can't breathe, please stop" Damien's mum "it's nice that you love Rose so much darling but I think she wants you to stop." Seriously, I had to prize his hands off her neck. I think his mum might have actually let him throttle her.
Same mum - different occasion. Pick daughter up from drop-off party (Damien's mum stayed due to his sadistic nature.) Rose looks very sad and tearful when I go to collect. Damien's mum - "I think she's very overtired. She tripped up near Damien when they were all playing and I think she thought he did it on purpose. I think she's just very tired." Later Rose said "he kept chasing me at the party even though his mum tried to stop him. Then he pushed me over really hard onto the floor. "

That’s shit parenting, not ‘gentle parenting’ or any other ‘type’.

There have always been and will always be shit parents- especially when it comes to boys being ‘boisterous’ and girls getting hurt.

This is very much not gentle parenting.

Try teaching a class of 30 teenagers who have been brought up with 'gentle' parenting and 'do what the fuck you like' parenting. I don't actually have hours and hours in my day to softly and empathetically explain to an endless round of flop-haired contrarians why they need to sit down and shut up because teaching everyone what they need to pass their GCSEs is actually more important than whether they as individuals feel the need to express themselves at every moment by interrupting my teaching.

Right, but ‘gentle parenting’ wasn’t a fashion 13/14/15 years ago, so there are not classrooms full of teenagers who were all parented this way.

Even now when it’s trending on ticktock it isn’t followed by the majority of parents, so it’s extremely unlikely that there will ever be a classroom full of these children.

Except, interestingly, in schools which are based around these sort of principles, where largely they don’t have the issues you describe.

But there are classrooms full of kids parented this way. I know. Because I teach them!

@Theresstilltonighttocome my DS is 12 and I can assure you there were plenty of "gentle parenting" fanatics and forums out there when he was a baby. Especially among the NCT set. "Just tell him to use gentle hands" as my dysregulated, non listening 2 year old got overwhelmed and needed taking home. "Reins are cruel" as he ran off into the road. "You'll cause trauma if you move out of your room when she won't go to sleep" as my toddler DD played Jack in the box child at bedtime.

My highly educated friend told me once that she had taught her child to constantly question authority so they could make up their own mind whether a request/order was reasonable and decide whether or not to comply. She was very proud of teaching them this. Perhaps there is a place for constantly questioning the status quo, but it really isn't as one of a class of 30 teenagers disrupting a lesson.

There will have been some obviously. But they weren’t the majority then, and they aren’t now (on a population level).

These things do tend to be quite demographic/regional though, so in some places/amongst some demographics there will be more- if you are in Hebden Bridge or Totness you are quite likely to feel you are inundated with them- where I am you would have to go searching.

People like this ought to have the sense to educate their child in a setting where this is more appropriate- mainstream state schools with 30 odd kids in the class don’t have the capacity or the inclination to accommodate it.

Right, but ‘gentle parenting’ wasn’t a fashion 13/14/15 years ago, so there are not classrooms full of teenagers who were all parented this way.

Eldest is 18 it was around and people using the label when she was a baby - it was just more parents for every subsequent child we had. Now we go to some locations and it's seems to be bulk of the kids.

@Alexa51 you sound too polite a quick - Let go now in firm semi loud voice to boy then physically getting in there if that's ignored - and ignore mother and say over and over how dangerous neck holding in and she really need to curb it for his sake.

I do get it - everyone is polite and then seethes afterwards I did that round friends before think fuck that shit - and politely but firmly told kids and friends off most of time , to my surprise, they reacted very well. Few mother's I knew less well reacted badly to their kids being gently told off - but kids were usually fine.

Gentle parenting is getting ridiculous, my daughter got shoved over, two hands to the chest, and all the nursery workers said was gentle hands please.

They don't the blame the school or teachers for picking on their child - and constantly argue the toss.

I do think the arguing is getting more endemic though society - course I;m on for adults they don't give out marks - it pass fail exams - they used to but people would argue and argue they'd done that and mark should be higher - the course teacher isn't the marker and has no chance of changing marks.

DH a lecture he says many of the middle class students think marks - and it's all blind marked - are a negotiation or them not having done a project is not their problem. He tends to shut it down very fast other lectures don't seem to have that confidence - though he says he generally has to push back against low expectations more generally.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said but this is NOT gentle parenting!!

Universities are in an odd position these days because they have largely turned into businesses-

In the past not many people could gain places, and if you did finance was provided- it was accepted (generally) that academic rigour was the road to success.

Now, there is a course level in reach for nearly anyone who wants to do it, but the fees that are charged are enormous-

this has lead to a shift in thinking, it’s no longer-

‘I worked incredibly hard for this, I’m incredibly lucky and grateful to have the opportunity and I’m confident it will set me up for a good level of lifestyle and career in the future’

increasingly it’s-

‘Im paying a fuck load for this, and I’m going to be in debt for decades afterwards- I am entitled to a certain level of service for my money. Its not enough to be a graduate anymore, I need every mark and every edge I can get to set me apart from the 1000s of others who will graduate next year- and if that means making a nuisance of myself, well so be it’

It's a safeguarding nightmare once they reach school too.

In what way?

It absolutely was a thing 15 years ago. My DC is 11 and we were very much feeling like the tail end of the gentle parent nonsense.

I need every mark and every edge I can get to set me apart from the 1000s of others who will graduate next year- and if that means making a nuisance of myself, well so be it’

I think that was my point the argument doesn't get them anything. I think everyone would understand arguing if if got you further ahead.

Adult course I'm doing is pass or fail for every exam - if you fail they go through paper with you but if you pass people will argue for a 0.5 mark when end certification does not mention the marks at all.

With degree - if they were near a grade boundary then DH and others look for marks and anyone near boundary work is heavily moderated. It's the students mid grade boundaries are arguing about one or two marks that annoy him or worst still ones who half arse or don't bother at all then argue they should still get good marks. Though I agree uni funding has clouded the issue somewhat.

Though some of his graduate students said in their project work most terrifying thing DH could do was say Okay in a certain tone. Meant he explained where they went wrong and told them what they needed to do - and they'd argued he was wrong so he shrugged and walked on and left them to it - it was the oh shit we've fucked up moment/ stop pause rethink - similar to our kids when younger with an Excuse me - ie you've crossed a boundary and maybe want to rethink indicator.

Right, but ‘gentle parenting’ wasn’t a fashion 13/14/15 years ago, so there are not classrooms full of teenagers who were all parented this way.

Yes, it was, as per my post earlier. Dc1 was born nearly 19 years ago and it was everywhere. Most of the other parents I knew with kids the same age were way more “gentle”/ permissive than me and I don’t think I was super-strict. And they weren’t just lazy - they were either terrified to upset their child by saying no or being firm, or actively of the view that boundaries were bad and restrictive. This is mainly middle class parents, but not extreme lentil weaver types, just mainstream middle class people. Less of it among working class friends (I’m from half working class half middle class background so that might be part of why I didn’t have the same views, though that’s not to say wc parents are perfect either, but seem less likely to do this no boundaries thing).

I think it’s been going on since the 60s and became more mainstream with the decline in/abolition of corporal punishment. I agree that should have been abolished but a lot of people now seem to think all discipline, or making your child unhappy by setting a boundary, is abuse.

Yeah, people are not always logical in their thinking and behaviour.

Yes, there has always been a class divide in parenting, as with all things.

@Alexa51 Do not let your DD be with this child when they are only under the mother's supervision. You need to step up massively if he or any other child is hurting or frightening your DD. Think about what kind of a lesson you are teaching her. A boy hurts me, so I need to ask him politely to stop. Maybe he will or maybe he won't but I have to stay sweet and polite and pleading at all costs no matter how I feel. Nope. You need to clearly and loudly and with anger assert your DD's boundaries to keep her safe in the now, but also in the future.

The naughty step is purely exclusion (which for children is something they will absolutely inherently fear, as they can't take care of themselves). It's sending that child a message of "Carry on and you'll be excluded from your family". Otherwise, how on earth would sitting on a step make any difference? It's not 'hard work' to sit on a step for 5 minutes.

As I said, children HAVE to adapt to whatever parenting they're given. Your parents authoritarian style obviously 'worked' on you (ie got you to comply), as mine did on me, but not to acknowledge that it is emotionally manipulative to use the childs biological NEED for inclusion against them, seems a bit denial-y.

We now have a much better understanding of the science of parenting and the neuroscience of how fear affects the developing brain than we did 20+ years ago. We now know it's best to limit fear as much as possible in children, in order to help them achieve their natural best.

That's why this gentle parenting stuff came about on the first place. Scientists discovered authoritarian parenting was shite for developing brains.