To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

Sadly when brain development evolved it didn’t take into account shifts in societal values…

it still behaves as if we live in a totally different society with far less concern for if kids smack each other occasionally- hence the disconnect between what is manageable and convenient for parents now (how do you closely monitor 3 kids so they don’t hit each other? What happens when they are in big nursery groups? Parents need and want to work etc), and what is the reality of child development.

This is just my take on it and I won’t be able to explain it very well, but for me it’s less about the child understanding and taking on board the explanation and more about showing the child that you respect them enough to give them an explanation. You can acknowledge that it’s difficult to understand; you can even agree that you don’t really understand (or agree) with whatever rule you’re trying to enforce, but at least if you acknowledge that it’s difficult for them you’re showing you care enough to empathise.

When my boss asks me to do something, not do something, or do something differently, I’m pretty sure she always explains why. If she didn’t, and I asked for an explanation, and she said “because I said so”, I would not be terribly impressed, to put it mildly: it would sour my relationship with her and erode what goodwill I had towards her. Children aren’t adults, and we shouldn’t treat them like adults, but personally - and I know this isn’t a popular opinion on MN - I don’t believe they are less deserving of respect than adults.

This is just something I feel intuitively, and I suspect you either agree with it equally intuitively or you don’t - and as I say, I don’t think I’ve explained it very well!

I wanted to amend this to add that I don’t for a minute think that my kids actually think “ah, my mother respects me enough to grant me an explanation, this will improve my relationship with her!” - it just feels, to me, like the right thing to do. For the same reason I disregard a lot of the gentle parenting advice about praise - looking at a child’s painting and dispassionately saying “I see you’ve used lots of blue here” just doesn’t feel right to me even though I know that’s the “correct” response.

And ultimately I think most parenting decisions are made that way: we do what feels right to us subjectively, then we look for evidence that suggests we’re doing it right objectively - not the other way round. Very few people approach parenting with an entirely open mind, read all the theories in a totally unbiased way, and decide how to parent based solely on what the theories and the evidence say. Basically we’re all doing what feels right to us - and that’s why, in these discussions, no-one is ever persuaded out of the approach they already have.

Its rare to see a child or teen with a book with pages or hear i want to be a nurse doctor teacher etc. Now its i wanna be tictok famous i wanna be an actress a singer.

Yes, one of the RL case I witnessed is the parents let their DC watch YouTube at breakfast at age 8. Video game at age 9, headphones on to chat with strangers at age 10. Then allowed the child to have a YouTube channel of his own before turning 11yo. Bunkers! Why would you do that to your child? Wondering why they don't want to go to school, instead thinking they could make money out of their YouTube channel? (Okay, there's a lot more than that. But I don't want to start..)

Its rare to see a child or teen with a book with pages or hear i want to be a nurse doctor teacher etc.

To be fair no child in their right mind would want to be a teacher with the profession like it is now…

No one would want to be a teacher with the government and funding being as it is now.

Lol.

all of these situations would lead to a parental confrontation! Get the fuck away from my child till you can function!

now now little Jimmy. You just got hit with a stick, probably best to hit that kid back, just so they learn!

@Return2thebasic
The problem is mine is fully aware sometimes, as most of the daily stuff has been repeated again and again. But he just doesn't want to bother.

I do think I must be a really incapable mum who has to resort to use all sorts of unfriendly tactics, e.g. reverse psychology, threatening of not getting snacks or just simply raising up my voice.

There's a strong sense that it's not his problem, but it's my responsibility to make him do the unpleasant boring things which would do good to him in the long run.

Just by explaining and hope they would be responsible to themselves with their little brain? No. Never.

I do still explain. But I don't rely on it and he also needs to acknowledge he can't "parent" himself!

This is exactly why Gentle Parenting doesn't work for my children. I give explanations whenever I enforce clearly established boundaries. I label big feelings. I verbally empathize. I give natural consequences for the choices my children make.

Yet they make the same poor choices time and time again despite knowing that their choice will result in a consequence they won't like. Sometimes it is forgetfulness, but most often it is laziness and defiance because they are strong-minded children.

Sometimes guiding them gently to understand why they shouldn't do something isn't enough. Sometimes they need to see that their actions are entirely unacceptable without a chat and a cuddle. Sometimes they need a raised voice and time by themselves without attention.

strong-minded children, yes, 😂 bless us, that's exactly who they are.

Doesn't like to be told, even at age just 4 and a half. Loves to say "no", just for the sake of not giving me a yes. Sometimes, it's so hilarious as they realised they should have answered "yes" after came to proper term what was actually suggested by me, so then they had to swallow back the end sound of that "no...". 😑Oops. (Don't get me wrong, he's a perfect child outside this household, just not in front of me!)

Don't know. Maybe it's me who doesn't know how to parent in a smarter way. I started to notice humour does change the dynamics a bit, but I don't always have the mood / time for it!

I would absolutely disagree that I was taught nothing other than compliance through fear of punishment. I was punished. I knew why I was being punished (because I'd been a little horror, generally.) I knew, because my parents were reasonable people, what behaviour was acceptable and (very importantly) why. But oddly enough, because I'm a normal human being, and was as a child, sometimes, "It makes Timmy sad when you hit him with a stick," (not an actual example) didn't work, and yes, I'd get punished.

If I'm honest, I think "natural consequences" is a bit of a weird idea. A good deal of the job of parenting is to protect our kids from the natural consequences of the things that, due to their immaturity, they'd choose to do (not clean their teeth, run into the road, hit other children with sticks, pet strange dogs, watch YouTube all night, not do any home work, etc.) If, in order to protect our children from those natural consequences, we have to sometimes impose unnatural consequences, I'm fine with that.

I didn't say a water park, I said a trip to the swimming baths that has a flume.
There's a council run one in my borough that's £5 a pop. It does waves and has a whirlpool. Maybe that's a rarity, but most council run pools do inflatable sessions.

I'm a low income parent, but even I don't think taking my child for 'fun' swimming at the council run pool at the weekend is some extravagant, indulgent, once in a life time opportunity 😂

We have one, it’s less than £5 for a kid.

But how did the punishment of sitting on the 'naughty step' teach you this?

It is predominantly a taster of abandonment. 'You do something we don't like? Well, now you aren't part of this family' (for a few minutes).

All 'consequences' that aren't connected to the actual wrong-doing teach nothing but compliance through fear (of abandonment, rejection, abuse, etc).

Taking an unrelated favourite item or upcoming treat (that had already been earned) teaches children that any unwanted behaviour in the present erases previous favourable behaviour. That they are now just a bad apple. It's THAT feeling that children don't want to experience again, the feeling that if they are inherently bad, their parents might not like/love them anymore. It's fear. Children NEED their parents to care for them, so (often subconsciously) they adapt to the fear that their parents won't take care of them properly if they are 'bad'. So they will try to be good, not because they've suddenly learnt the skill of empathy, but for their own survival.

It's psychological manipulation, and it's vile.

Yes, you're right, I apologise for using the term natural consequences so much, that was my mistake, it's been a while since I did any training on this subject! I meant logical consequences.

if I explain stuff to them whenever I can, on the occasions when I say “look, you’ll just have to trust me on this one”, they do actually accept it

I agree with this from @ZebraDanios and I think I do this too just naturally.

I've been catching up on this thread since being offline this evening and I think it's interesting. Lots of discussion about "the child's brain" and what a child is and isn't "developmentally ready" for.

The truth is that behavioural studies of children will always be hard to control for other factors like demographics etc. At the end of the day we don't know as much as we'd like about "the child's brain".

Employing empathy, instinct and common sense is the best we can do. Watching how our kids react. Seeing if the methods work. Then we know if our own individual child is developmentally ready for xyz.

If a suggested parenting method feels too outlandish, like a pp above mentioned about "wanky scripts" then it's a reasonable assumption that they won't work as well as more instinctive methods.

That's why, for example, I've never felt able to sleep train. Whenever I try, my instinct feels wrong.

But that's also why I can't be all smiley and "gentle hands!! I can see you're frustrated darling!!" if my dd snatches something (she never does this any more). Because my instinctive response is to show instant, though mild and still loving, disapproval, and my observation of her is that it works and doesn't harm her sense of self worth.

The problem with that is that the people who are screaming at and hitting their children, and the ones who are saying “oops, oh dear” while their kid smacks someone are also doing what instinctively feels right to them- that is the thing that chimes with them and is their most comfortable position.

Our feeling of what is right, ok, good enough or permissible is not neutral- it’s a product of a lifetime of experience one way or another.

Often what our ‘instinct’ is, I.e our first, unreasoned reaction, is not actually the most functional one because it’s about our feelings in a situation- it’s about us more than it’s about what is actually happening.

Those people aren't going to be swayed by reading Sarah Ockwell Smith, are they!

And anyway I don't think many parents who smack are following their instinct when they smack. I was smacked by my (single) mum as a child and my mum has since told me she really regretted it and it never sat right with her, but that everyone told her that's the right way to discipline. I was quite a troubled kid and played up in primary school and this is how extended family urged her to deal with it. I believe her.

I think Nature equips parents, particularly mums, with good protective and nurturing instincts on the whole, as well as heightened observation. I think a lot of parenting problems arise from when we ignore these instincts.

If my expressing mild disapproval were to upset my dd, I'd notice, because I'm alert to her emotions all the time.

Just to harp on about that one example - it was gentle parenting that convinced me to tell my dd that not toothbrushing would cause poorly teeth, rather than simply insisting she does it. But my instinct quickly told me I'd worried her and she kept bringing it up afterwards fearfully. It clearly wasn't the gentle option at all. Sometimes we have to trust our instincts

I think Nature equips parents, particularly mums, with good protective and nurturing instincts on the whole, as well as heightened observation. I think a lot of parenting problems arise from when we ignore these instincts.
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Nature provides a drive to reproduce, and bonding hormones to go with the opportunity for bonding behaviour- but that applies equally to the shit parents.

Much beyond that and being a successful parent of any ‘type’ does involve effort and thought.

And anyway I don't think many parents who smack are following their instinct when they smack.

Hitting out at things that have made you angry/frustrated/embarassed/scared is extremely instinctive to loads of people- just think about all the violence around. Men hit women and kids, women hit each other and sometimes men, women hit kids, men hit each other all the time…

The trouble with some instincts is that they don't always translate well between different living circumstances. The environments and types family groups that we raise children is hasn't been consistent.

Take the idea that adults should never show anger or frustration towards small children. I can believe in that one but it's going to be far easier in situations with several adults looking after a child and practically impossible for lone adults with multiple children.

Yep, it’s very ridiculous! On the plus side for one (or more!) dentist is gonna rake it in someday when that child’s teeth are a disaster 🤦🏽‍♀️😂

When my boss asks me to do something, not do something, or do something differently, I’m pretty sure she always explains why
The first time ... But what if you make that same mistake twice, three times, will your boss still calmly spend the time to explain the same rule that you didn't follow because you just didn't feel like doing so? Of course not.

3 years old don't stop hitting others because mum explained why they shouldn't once. They keep doing it until they learn consequences by themselves.

10 years old don't start doing their homework every night without complaining because dad explained once why they are important.

It's the CONSTANT explaining that is the issue. It engages the child in pointless arguements, believing that everyone should be expected to listen to their wants regardless of the rules set around them.

To be fair I have seen the odd colleague who still needs their boss to stage manage their emotions but they tend to be considered very tedious.

Lack of emotional resilience is already a huge issue in today’s teens; I dread to think what schools will be like over the next ten years or so. Parenting has become optional to so many people, whether it’s never actually talking to their children (and relying on electronics) or this nonsense. It’s our job to prepare our children for adult life/to be part of society.

Fearful because she was told not brushing her teeth would make them poorly? She sounds like she needs to develop some resilience to be honest, I wouldn’t be going out of my way to hide appropriate risks like that from her.

Exactly. Unbelievable.

@vivainsomnia Well - this is why I said we shouldn’t treat children like adults: everything I’ve read suggests that a 3-year-old’s brain is just not wired in the same way as an adult’s, so we can’t have the same expectations of them. But I’ve seen earlier in this thread that apparently no-one knows enough about a child’s brain to say what they can and can’t do, and thinking that we should take a child’s neural development into account means having too low expectations of them, so I can see I’m not going to convince anyone with that argument!

Edited to add: with the 10-year-old not doing homework, at that point I’d say something like “we’ve been through this, I know it seems pointless to you, I know you don’t love subject x, but let’s just get on and get it done”. Again, you don’t need endless explanations to show you understand how they feel. I really can’t see the harm in taking a child’s feelings into account - it’s when we let them think their feelings are more important than anyone else’s that we run into problems.