Page 39 | To expect staff to keep this day free, even if not contracted to work?

Newyeargrinch · 2024-02-19T08:47:29+00:00

Senior manager in a small business that has just paid out a considerable amount of money to sponsor a local event towards the end of the year (think Xmas fair). This could potentially bring in a lot of good publicity and business for us. The success of the event depends on having plenty of staff present to represent us. The event is on a Saturday. Some staff work Saturday anyway, some alternate Saturdays. Others are weekday only, some full time, others part time. I know full well that if we asked for volunteers or left until nearer the time, certain staff would come up with reasons why they couldn't help. Therefore an email has gone out to all staff, informing them of the date and saying we expect them to keep it free to attend this event (they will get an extra day off in lieu). Several staff replied to say they didn't know their plans that far ahead as yet but, if free, would be happy to help. We've replied that, if they have nothing planned, they can keep the day free and will be expected to help. It has been fed back that many staff are unhappy and say that we cannot dictate what they do with their spare time. I think it's a small ask, they've had 10 months notice and it could bring a lot of extra business our way, ultimately benefiting them! AIBU?

DancefloorAcrobatics · 22/02/2024 06:52

Pay them a decent overtime rate- it's close to Christmas, so money might be greatly received.

Just be wary of tax implications, sometimes it's not worth doing for that reason. So be very generous!

puzzledout · 22/02/2024 07:20

Sorry I'm still laughing @likethislikethat

"I promise you"

"Everyday is a potential working day"

"Refusing leave"

"Don't mind collecting your wages each month" having completed a months work! Like the employer can withhold wages.

I once worked for a company like that, it was a short lived experience! Mind you at six months "service" I was deemed a long term staff member, the shortest on record was 10 days when I was there! There recruitment bill was through the roof. I sometimes go on their website to view the many new members of staff, through the revolving door. I wish I could warn these poor people not to leave their other jobs to join here. Mind you they were part of a network (financial services company), and when I was leaving the network were questioning what the issues were that they couldn't retain staff. Hopefully the network were unhappy as it was a reflection on them also, not just on the "small" company.

I went on to a job with decent employers and never looked back, meanwhile they're still struggling with staff and have become well known in the industry as a company to not work for.

Good luck if you own a small business @likethislikethat, I think you could be doing a lot of overtime to make up for employees that have left.

Checkeringin · 22/02/2024 07:49

likethislikethat · 22/02/2024 02:11

Presumably some of you wanting to tell the boss of your small employer to "fuck off" don't mind collecting your wages each month and you're probably planning to keep doing that and don't expect to be told to fuck off yourself and find another job ?

10 months notice and you find every excuse under the sun to avoid it ?

I promise you that if I asked and you said no, the reason you wouldn't be there in 10 months time is because you wouldn't be working for me long before that date.

However, I hope the business owner has been sensible enough to have in the contract of employment that every day is a potential working day.

Employees should also note that employers can dictate when employees have their holidays. Imagine if all those who won't do the Xmas gig find themselves having their holiday requests denied and schedule to have the month of October off instead.

I promise you that if you treat employees like that, the small business you work for will fold and you'll end up with such a bad reputation in the area that you'll be begging those employees to help recommend you for a minimum wage job.

ElaineMBenes · 22/02/2024 08:09

Absolutely asking is fine. But targetting those without children is not fine. Childless people also have lives and commitments - care of other relatives, a second job, social plans, or just that they don't want to.
Everyone's time has equal value. 😀

I completely agree!!
I used to work in a team where it explicitly stated in your contract that you had to work evenings and weekends.
We had one member of staff who decided she didn't want to work evenings or the occasional Saturday once she had children.
It did not go down well when she stated those events should be covered by people who don't have children!

BardRelic · 22/02/2024 08:19

I promise you that if I asked and you said no, the reason you wouldn't be there in 10 months time is because you wouldn't be working for me long before that date.

This is probably true, but not for the reasons you think it is.

Employees should also note that employers can dictate when employees have their holidays. Imagine if all those who won't do the Xmas gig find themselves having their holiday requests denied and schedule to have the month of October off instead.

Employers should note that dictating holidays without good reason constitutes workplace bullying. Have fun retaining your staff @likethislikethat

QueenBean22 · 22/02/2024 08:37

@likethislikethat

Wow, what a post!

i Really hope you are not an employer , I would feel sorry for your staff with that attitude

puzzledout · 22/02/2024 09:00

@likethislikethat and OP would seem to be the same person...

sueelleker · 22/02/2024 09:54

puzzledout · 22/02/2024 09:00

@likethislikethat and OP would seem to be the same person...

I was just going to say this! Also, employers might be able to decline holiday requests, but unless you work somewhere like a factory that closes completely, they can't enforce when you do take time off.

piglet81 · 22/02/2024 11:36

I don’t think that’s correct. This ACAS page says that employers can dictate when you take leave, as long as they give you sufficient notice.

https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-holiday-entitlement/asking-for-and-taking-holiday#:~:text=Your%20employer%20can%3A,take%20any%20holiday%20at%20all

Asking for and taking holiday - Holiday entitlement - Acas

When you want to ask for holiday, or when your employer makes you take it.

https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-holiday-entitlement/asking-for-and-taking-holiday#:~:text=Your%20employer%20can%3A,take%20any%20holiday%20at%20all

puzzledout · 22/02/2024 11:48

piglet81 · 22/02/2024 11:36

I don’t think that’s correct. This ACAS page says that employers can dictate when you take leave, as long as they give you sufficient notice.

https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-holiday-entitlement/asking-for-and-taking-holiday#:~:text=Your%20employer%20can%3A,take%20any%20holiday%20at%20all

I think if you read it thoroughly, the type of nonsense that @likethislikethat is spouting is not that they need it to be taken at a certain time, that's not the case.

They just think they can act like cunts to make the employee adhere to their frankly unrealistic demands of "every day being a potential work day"!

It's not a business need, it's a need to be a cunt.

Two separate things entirely.

cannaecookrisotto · 22/02/2024 13:21

This post made me laugh.

I'm board level in a global organisation.

You need to incentivise them to work on the day, because "it will make the company look good" and "generate big sales" isn't going to cut the mustard. Majority of staff don't give a fuck if they have no management interest. They care about their own pockets, and their own families, and rightly so.

A day off in lieu is a bit shit as well. If staff aren't contracted to work on a Saturday then they can tell you no and there's not a dicky bird you can do about it. You could potentially have damaged your rapport and staff morale, which will have a bigger impact on performance than the benefit that this one day will bring.

In future, when planning such events, it's always better to assign and agree resource before committing funds.

Also, you'll always get better results from the workforce when staff do things because they WANT to, and not because they feel their hand has been forced or under obligation.

YABU.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 22/02/2024 13:21

likethislikethat · 22/02/2024 02:11

Presumably some of you wanting to tell the boss of your small employer to "fuck off" don't mind collecting your wages each month and you're probably planning to keep doing that and don't expect to be told to fuck off yourself and find another job ?

10 months notice and you find every excuse under the sun to avoid it ?

I promise you that if I asked and you said no, the reason you wouldn't be there in 10 months time is because you wouldn't be working for me long before that date.

However, I hope the business owner has been sensible enough to have in the contract of employment that every day is a potential working day.

Employees should also note that employers can dictate when employees have their holidays. Imagine if all those who won't do the Xmas gig find themselves having their holiday requests denied and schedule to have the month of October off instead.

@likethislikethat - it doesn't matter how much notice you give your staff - if they don't want to work OUTSIDE their contracted hours, they don't have to. And sacking them for refusing would land you in an employment tribunal.

Of course it is different if your contract says you can be expected to work outside your usual hours - but this isn't the case for @Newyeargrinch. The title of the thread states clearly that the employees are NOT contracted to work the hours she is expecting them to work!

I'd also suggest to you that your management style is, as previous posters have said, likely to result in a high turnover of staff - your Do as I say, or I'll sack you or deny you your holiday request attitude is toxic and vindictive - is that really the sort of person you are? The sort of employer you are? And you are proud of it?

LolaSmiles · 22/02/2024 13:58

likethislikethat
Are you serious? You sound like something out of that Tory rant Britannia Unchained.
😂

What next, back to the workhouses, feckless people wanting employers to stick to contracts and have reasonable contractual terms and conditions are ruining business?

Talkamongstyourselves · 22/02/2024 15:29

MikeRafone · 22/02/2024 05:06

Presumably some of you wanting to tell the boss of your small employer to "fuck off" don't mind collecting your wages each month and you're probably planning to keep doing that and don't expect to be told to fuck off yourself and find another job

presumably there is work done for the wages each month, they don’t get paid just because. There is a surplus of jobs atm and many employers are struggling to get candidates to interview

I promise you that if I asked and you said no, the reason you wouldn't be there in 10 months time is because you wouldn't be working for me long before that date.

you don’t own your staff and not every day is a working day, for many reasons this isn’t possible in many situations, thank goodness there are employment laws concerning contracts

Employees should also note that employers can dictate when employees have their holidays. Imagine if all those who won't do the Xmas gig find themselves having their holiday requests denied and schedule to have the month of October off instead.

vindictive managers will never ever get the best workforce, they’ll alway wonder why they get a demotivated staff who they don’t consider loyal & let them down

I used to work in a place that had your attitude towards their staff. It soon bit them on the arse when a new place started recruiting.........roughly 45% of the workforce handed in their notice in 2 weeks (me included). management were literally begging people to stay, but nobody did. That business has now folded whilst the other one is thriving. Good luck for the future, your going to need it.

Talkamongstyourselves · 22/02/2024 15:31

Talkamongstyourselves · 22/02/2024 15:29

I used to work in a place that had your attitude towards their staff. It soon bit them on the arse when a new place started recruiting.........roughly 45% of the workforce handed in their notice in 2 weeks (me included). management were literally begging people to stay, but nobody did. That business has now folded whilst the other one is thriving. Good luck for the future, your going to need it.

Show quote history

Sorry, meant to quote @likethislikethat not @MikeRafone

Kittyloulou · 22/02/2024 17:01

Itscatsallthewaydown · 19/02/2024 08:50

Personally I’d have told you to fuck off.

This!!!

Wellhellooooodear · 22/02/2024 19:53

likethislikethat · 22/02/2024 02:11

Presumably some of you wanting to tell the boss of your small employer to "fuck off" don't mind collecting your wages each month and you're probably planning to keep doing that and don't expect to be told to fuck off yourself and find another job ?

10 months notice and you find every excuse under the sun to avoid it ?

I promise you that if I asked and you said no, the reason you wouldn't be there in 10 months time is because you wouldn't be working for me long before that date.

However, I hope the business owner has been sensible enough to have in the contract of employment that every day is a potential working day.

Employees should also note that employers can dictate when employees have their holidays. Imagine if all those who won't do the Xmas gig find themselves having their holiday requests denied and schedule to have the month of October off instead.

The state of this! The sheer entitlement of it.

Round3HereWeGo · 22/02/2024 20:15

Laughing so hard at OP and @likethislikethat .

You both sound like bellends. Completely clueless.

If asked nicely I would try to make myself available. If you demanded like the OP suggests I would look for a new job.

You better be paying your staff well over the industry average if you have a hope in Hell of keeping them with this kind of bull attitude!

Jumpingthruhoops · 22/02/2024 20:24

rubyslippers · 19/02/2024 08:52

I think you’ve handled it badly
before you committed to the event I would have asked staff availability and offered a financial incentive to work not a day off - you sound a bit bullish
if they have kids, they may need to plan childcare and pay
they may have a Saturday hobby
there’s a million reasons why people may not want to work a weekend and if it’s not contracted hours you’re relying on goodwill - which I think you’ve lost

This! I've always found the TOIL thing a bit of a cop out. As if getting a Monday (working weekday) off is sufficient compensation for having to work a Saturday (family day)?

Employees work for pay. If employers want them to work, they need to pay them! Simple.

echt · 22/02/2024 20:59

Hobnobswantshernameback · 21/02/2024 13:22

So OP never came back and 38 pages of fuckwits arguing with thin air
Bravo OP

Not sure what you're congratulating the OP on.

I've been really pleased at the overwhelming support for sensible, humane responses in support of workers. As well as an understanding of how employment contracts work. Unlike the OP.

MayThe4th · 22/02/2024 21:40

likethislikethat · 22/02/2024 02:11

Presumably some of you wanting to tell the boss of your small employer to "fuck off" don't mind collecting your wages each month and you're probably planning to keep doing that and don't expect to be told to fuck off yourself and find another job ?

10 months notice and you find every excuse under the sun to avoid it ?

I promise you that if I asked and you said no, the reason you wouldn't be there in 10 months time is because you wouldn't be working for me long before that date.

However, I hope the business owner has been sensible enough to have in the contract of employment that every day is a potential working day.

Employees should also note that employers can dictate when employees have their holidays. Imagine if all those who won't do the Xmas gig find themselves having their holiday requests denied and schedule to have the month of October off instead.

😂😂😂😂😂 I hope you like working for McD’s when your business goes bust because no-one wants to work for you.

I’m hoping you’re just on the windup, but assuming you aren’t, the reason why someone who told you to fuck off wouldn’t be working for you in ten months time wouldn’t be because you’d have fired them, you wouldn’t be able to get away with that without finding yourself in front of a tribunal, it would be because people have more sense than to work for such a shit employer.

And what if everyone said no? What then? Are you going to fire the entire workforce and then what? You can’t hire people to replace them because if you fire them all you’d be breaking the law, if you make them redundant you legally can’t replace their roles, so I guess if they all said no you’d have to shut up shop and fuck off home. And how fortuatous sad that would be.

mathanxiety · 22/02/2024 21:45

I don't honestly know what you were expecting?

What you're asking is completely unreasonable. A day off in lieu is a joke.

You're asking people to basically donate their time to boost your bottom line.

mathanxiety · 22/02/2024 21:47

Saymyname28 · 19/02/2024 08:57

So you're expecting them to work on their day off in exchange for a day off. So they gain absolutely nothing. Its 100% a favour to you. You've phrased it as a demand with no appreciation for them not being required to do it. Benefitting nothing from it. It's your business, not theirs, they don't benefit from going above and beyond.

Plus, weekends near Christmas are busy for either shopping/organising or family and friends. You'd need to give big rewards to expect people to give that up for your benefit.

This.

Give your head a wobble.

mathanxiety · 22/02/2024 21:51

RatatouillePie · 19/02/2024 09:05

Even with 10 months notice, you are ALWAYS going to get the moaning brigade.

They'll moan they have little kids and can't find childcare. They'll moan they don't want another day off in lieu etc... People will find an excuse if they want to.

Some people will no doubt have a genuine reason why they can't.

It's a lovely gesture what the company is doing.

I'd just go with the flow, don't pressurise anyone, and any staff that do come in on their day off to attend the event, I'd not only give them a day off in lieu, I'd then present them with a surprise Christmas hamper to thank them for having a positive attitude towards charity events and for supporting the company.

You are kidding, right?

People don't have to work for anything less than money these days.

QueenBean22 · 22/02/2024 21:58

RatatouillePie · 19/02/2024 09:05

Even with 10 months notice, you are ALWAYS going to get the moaning brigade.

They'll moan they have little kids and can't find childcare. They'll moan they don't want another day off in lieu etc... People will find an excuse if they want to.

Some people will no doubt have a genuine reason why they can't.

It's a lovely gesture what the company is doing.

I'd just go with the flow, don't pressurise anyone, and any staff that do come in on their day off to attend the event, I'd not only give them a day off in lieu, I'd then present them with a surprise Christmas hamper to thank them for having a positive attitude towards charity events and for supporting the company.

A genuine reason is “I don’t want to work on my non contracted day” with no further explanation