Recent-ish new highway rules that favour the pedestrian - I fear accidents

[DistingusedSocialCommentator]

The stop and give way to a pedestrian crossing a road at a junction. That is what the majority of sensible road users have done anyway

Along with the above comes a new bit "Give way to pedestrians waiting to cross the road at a junction." This IMO will result in more accidents, EG, those that drive to close to the driver in front. The driver in front indicates to turn left like a good driver but at the junction off a main road is a pedestrian waiting to cross. The good driver stops to let the pedestrian cross and bang into the rear of the car goes the driver that was driving up their arse.

We often turn left into our close of a busy, main road and I always fear some seriously ignorant driver going into the rear of one of our cars if we had to suddenly pull up as there was another car shooting towards the main road as turning often has cars parked on one side.

If you are a good driver you should know this but here it goes: You are coming off a main, or road for that matter and hoping to turn left into another road. A pedestrian waiting to cross. You stop and there is a chance on the main/bigger roads the driver behind you is a moron and driving to close to you as you indicate and slow down before that. The rule applies to turning right as well but that is not as risky

AIBU to believe this new law will result in more harm than good, EG more car-to-car accidents when a car driver gives way to a waiting pedestrain/s to cross?
(I always slow down in advance to turn but have noted many times idiots right up th backside of our car and I think, what if I had to stop to allow someone across the road or there is something in the road and this new rule will just cause more accidents as many that have a licence have no idea how to drive safely and within the law)

I always try to keep a good distance as people turn into another road or their drive for that matter etc but I feel this new rule has not been well thought out

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-highway-code-8-changes-you-need-to-know-from-29-january-2022

When you say “a gap that’s just about big enough”, what I think you mean, in the context of the environment you’re describing, is a gap that isn’t big enough…. And if you’re forgetting all of those checks behind you, in the blind spot and for pedestrians then the gap definitely isn’t big enough. So the onus is on the driver to keep waiting until the gap is big enough!

In an ideal world, I agree. Obviously anyone would be advised to wait for a big gap, check for vehicles from all directions, and then check for pedestrians in all the places they could be too. I don't mean that I think an accident in this situation will be the fault of anyone but the driver turning when there isn't an adequate gap, just that this is a situation I can readily imagine arising.

There is not legal requirement for pedestrians to read and know the highway code, there is for drivers. Although pedestrians should take some responsibility for their own safety car drivers cannot just assume that they are able to. what about children, animals, the illiterate, people with learning disabilities...

Drivers have been tested on and have agreed to follow the highway code as a condition of receiving their license, if they are unwilling or unable to do so their license should be revoked.

Very true, hence my thread. Importantly, this new bit of the rule when turning left is not a good one as its a danger to pedestrians and causes idiots behind you to honk their horn at the driver in front and or be verbally abusive. Pedestrians ideally should cross a bit further down from the corner if practical.

Importantly, many ignorant pedestrians that are not aware that highway rules apply to them and not just the new ones but the old ones where they have to stop, look and then cross if its safe.
See my post from yesterday at 13-00hrs.

I as a good driver am aware re blind spots on bigger cars, and obstructions that can hide a smaller pedestrian ad have a good ability to read the road conditions. Sadly not all drivers are like that nor are pedestrians
Thank you

Good post and more fenced off crossings like some already are, EG, the gap between the fences is only at the zebra crossing and this stops dangerous fools from stepping into the road several feet before the actual crossing and increases safety for the drivers and pedestrians alike.

Sorry, but the idea that pedestrians should ignore the standard dropped kerb signifying a crossing, and instead travel several metres down the road - presumably having to bump prams and wheelchairs over a non-dropped pavement and pop out from between a bunch of parked cars instead - every single time there’s a minor road is unhinged. Do you ever walk anywhere?

Hello
Valid comments and crossings and rules could be changed to ensure greater safety for pedestrians.

The rules are already designed for pedestrian safety. They don't need to be changed, they need to be followed. The problem is with drivers like you thinking they know better.

@TempestTost in this example the car stops in the main road and the pedestrian crosses the junction Ed road, so being shunted from behind would push the car forward but they wouldn't be facing the pedestrian. Provided car A was in the right position, they shouldn't be in a position to hit the pedestrian (again unless lunatic driver which hit the car with such force that the car spun out of control)

I don't get what the issue is, it's been the rule in my country for god knows how long, junctions always have zebra crossings around them so it's very clear you have to stop and give way.

All that will happen if that ludicrous suggestion to inconvenience pedestrians to make things easy for drivers, is that inconsiderate drivers will park over and both sides of the relocated dropped kerb, making it even harder and more dangerous for the pedestrians to cross the road!

If the driver has the wheels turned, the car will go around the corner when bumped. The driver probably shouldn't, but that depends on seeing the pedestrian at the right time, which may not always happen, it could be inattention, but also sometimes it's caused by the pedestrian not making themselves visible (all black outfits on a winter night have a lot to answer for here) or behaving erratically.

This is my main issue - any system where there are a lot of variables or moving parts, and everything has to work right for it to work properly, will fail. There will always be times when the driver behind is too close, or the driver in front gets partly turned before seeing the pedestrian, or a million other things. And so that leaves us with, what is the outcome when it doesn't go right? Very bad for the pedestrian and really rather awful for the driver too.

I think a lot of traffic calming measures can be great, but they aren't suited to all spaces, even in relatively built up areas. And in practice honestly I think some can create more dangerous situations. I've seen a trend to much more complicated intersections where often it feels as if it's impossible to "look" at everything you are supposed to - particularly where there are some odd bike lane configurations, or distracting sinage.

I do think in towns pedestrians should generally have the right of way and cars have the responsibility of looking for them. But I also think it's important to be realistic about the ability of the driver to see and respond in good time, and that sometimes that means pedestrians should be managed in a way that makes it easier for drivers to anticipate what they are doing.

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or seriously failing to envision the concept of the massive improvement in safety. Crossing away from junctions especially ones where vehicles are coming off 40/60 miles mph roads would help.

Ideally, as I've said and another FM stated, more advertising to educate the uneducated to their responsibility when driving on the road and or crossing it as there are rules that apply to pedestrians and sadly, as expected and judging by this thread, many pedestrians feel its always the drivers that have to look out

I reference another of my detailed posts about pedestrians and rules crossing the road posted yesterday/Monday at 1300hrs.

To be clear, no one in their right mind wants to injure anyone when driving and as soon as more pedestrians acknowledge and or are educated about safe use of roads, the better for all of us

I keep on telling family, always stop before crossing and keep looking and listening - we dont use mobiles etc when out and av=bout especially when crossing a road and stop before crossing to give a driver a better idea just in case I miss the vheicle coming down the road

I've seen a trend to much more complicated intersections where often it feels as if it's impossible to "look" at everything you are supposed to - particularly where there are some odd bike lane configurations, or distracting sinage.

Yes, absolutely. Including bike lanes which are hidden between parked cars and the pavement, so when I'm turning left across that bike lane I now need to double check for a cyclist hidden behind the parked cars, as well as scanning the pavement at both sides of the turn and potentially waiting for pedestrians there to start crossing. While being honked at by the car behind for giving way to them.

But what do you want to change in the scenario you described? Other than removing the car wrongly beeping at you! Lots of driving requires you to have good situational awareness and if people cannot manage this then they shouldn't be driving.

Disagreeing with you isn’t being obtuse. And it’s not that I can’t envision the improvement in safety you are describing, as you rather patronisingly put it, but that I disagree with your opinion that the proposal will lead to an improvement.

Human nature is such that we will always take the shortest route from a to b when on foot. So the majority of people will continue to cross where the footpath takes them, and where current dropped kerbs are - in a straight line.

Where this is an issue at larger junctions we already have railing to guide pedestrians away from the natural crossing point. Are you proposing we do this at every junction? And if not how do you envisage the proposal actually working? How do you stop people walking straight over? How do you deal with the challenge of pushchairs and wheelchairs when motorists inevitably park blocking the new crossing. After all, they’ll only be a minute…. Simple answer is it won’t work. Therefore, those not on foot have to recognise that pedestrians have priority at a junction and modify their driving accordingly.

For there to be a massive improvement in safety there would have to be a massive number of accidents caused by the current situation. And there isn't. Sure, perhaps there are more minor shunts as a result of motorists not paying attention. But it’s unreasonable to inconvenience pedestrians as a result. Drivers need to pay more attention. More towns need to be pedestrianised. Using a car in a built up area should be seen as antisocial.

I'm just saying that, as a PP said, the junction is complicated than it used to be. 2 years ago(?) I wouldn't have been expected to wait for the pedestrians who had not yet started to cross. 3 years ago(?) the bike lane hidden behind the parked cars did not exist - bikes would have been between me and the parked cars. I appreciate it's safer for the bikes where they are now, though only if moving cars can still see them when they are crossing the bike lane.

Oh, and the council removed the pedestrian island at that same junction, so it's actually worse for pedestrians now too as they have to cross 3 lanes of traffic at once. (I have complained to them about this).

We have other roads too where there is now a cycle lane that is part of the pavement, but is not obviously demarcated, so bikes and pedestrians get confused and are at risk from each other.

Oh, and last time I (in my car) turned into that junction, and waited for a cyclist who was in the bike lane, the cyclist just sat there not moving. Thinking I was going first? Daydreaming? Dithering? Who knows?

The situation I'm more concerned about is turning right across traffic into a side road. There may have been no pedestrian around when you approached, but then you've waited some time for a gap in oncoming traffic

In those circumstances, as a pedestrian I will wait because I know it's hard when you're waiting for a gap to turn right.

But you can't rely on it and you may just have to wait for another gap.

However, I won't wait for people turning left, despite the "magic" indicator, because all they've got to do is slow down a little bit before they make the turn.

so when I'm turning left across that bike lane I now need to double check for a cyclist hidden behind the parked cars, as well as scanning the pavement at both sides of the turn and potentially waiting for pedestrians there to start crossing. While being honked at by the car behind for giving way to them

I've never once heard a car honking at another in this scenario, whether I am the pedestrian they are waiting for, or the driver waiting for the pedestrian - or just someone who is in the area at the time.

Anyway, why do you care if they honk you? Their problem, not yours!

If pedestrians cross away from junctions, they'd be crossing between accelerating cars instead of braking ones. I'm not at all that convinced that would be safer. If vehicles were slowing down appropriately at junctions it wouldn't be an issue anyway.
As a pedestrian, it's terrifying how many people fly around the roads at the speed limit not even seeing me with my bright yellow pram at the zebra crossing. Drivers need to remember that it's not their own private race course, and it's a speed limit, not a target.
And, FFS, drivers do always have to look out.

Okay I have some genuine questions, not being goady. I'm generally a careful driver and I don't "mind" waiting for pedestrians etc. When the new rules came in I tried to follow them, but I've given up waiting for pedestrians who are waiting to cross, as it seemed to lead to confusion all round. I do of course stop for pedestrians who are already crossing. But maybe I shoud try again with the new rules. My questions are:

• If I'm turning left into a side road, and there's a pedestrian waiting to cross, and I stop, I usually find the pedestrian looks confused and continues to wait for me. What do I do? Just sit there in a stalemate? Wave them across - but that might not be safe? Drive forward carefully?

• If I'm turning right into a side road, I have to wait for a gap in the traffic going the other way, and the cars behind me have to wait too. Again if there is a pedestrian waiting to cross the side road but they have clearly seen me and are waiting for me, what do I do? Sit there endlessly until they cross? Wave them from a distance, which may not be safe? I feel like in this situation the cars behind would wonder what on earth I am playing at!

I'm basing all this on the fact that when I'm a pedestrian I normally wait till it is clear, and encourage my kids to do the same. Other pedestrians near me seem to do likewise. I live in a student city so there are generally a lot of pedestrians. I'm happy to change my habits but can't see how it is supposed to work. Thought I'd ask in case there is something I've not thought of!

No one can pay attention to too many things at once, it is a basic principle of system building. People can only hold so many things in mind at once, and they also can only physically look at so many things at once.

If you begin asking people to do so, you will inevitably create scenarios where things get missed, and in these instances it will result in bikes or pedestrians being hit by cars.

In this scenario, there are a couple of potential things that could be changed. One is a crossing light, and another is that bike lane hidden by parked cars - these are extremely dangerous IMO, it can be difficult to have any good visibility, especially of a bike moving fast. They are also terrible for anyone coming out of a parking area or driveway who has to creep across a sidewalk, sit in the bike lane and try and peer around the cars to look for oncoming traffic.

They need to decide what they really want in this scenario, street parking, or a bike lane. It may not be possible to do everything.

This is how a junction with a side street should be laid out. The car has to go up a ramp when leaving the main road which forces them to slow and give way to the pedestrians and cyclists who have right of way. Notice that the cycle path and footpath are unbroken and continue across the entrance. The implication is clear, motorists must give way.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0134042,4.3456488,3a,75y,199.62h,81.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRTbiAod-MyiPw83HU3n1mA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

@DisappearingGirl, pedestrians don't seem very aware that the rules have changed and cars should wait for them - probably because the cars usually don't stop. They certainly don't stop for me! I find I have to wave the pedestrians across, but I recently asked a learner driver what she's being taught and she said she's been told not to wave people across...

As for turning right, I'm of the opinion that it can be tricky enough waiting for a gap, without also waiting for a pedestrian who probably won't cross until it's clearer anyway.