Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the ambulance service weren't at fault here?

61 replies

Greenvelvetdress · 17/02/2024 16:29

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-68310754

Really sad story with a sad outcome but I do feel like in this situation the ambulance service weren't at fault. When the women rang she was told they wouldn't be sending an ambulance and to call back if she got worse.

Her son was in the house with her and her daughter in law states that if he'd been told to take her to a&e he would have done... surely he could have rung back or looked at how unwell his mum was and made this decision himself?

I do think the wait times for ambulances and the state of the NHS is appalling due to lack of funding but don't think they can be blamed for everything...

Janet Lyon

999: Leicestershire woman dies at home hours after calling for ambulance

The 67-year-old, who was struggling to breathe, was told to go to her GP or a walk-in centre.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-68310754

OP posts:
Crooklodge · 18/02/2024 00:03

When I was 30 my dh phoned the drs begging for a home visit as I couldn't breathe properly, I'm too young was the answer. I had pnemonia, collapsed lung and sepsis. There needs to be accountability too to bottom.

Paperwhiteflowers · 18/02/2024 00:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

SleepyRich · 18/02/2024 00:37

MrTiddlesTheCat · 17/02/2024 17:08

We can, because they didn't send an ambulance and the woman died.

They coded her cat 3 which in theory would have been a blue light response, in my area over the last week looking at the numbers now the average response time for this category was 1hr 54mins, with 90% reached in just a little over 4hrs. For comparison cat 1 (cardiac arrests) average response was 8mins with 90% in under 14mins, and cat 2 (stroke/heart attack/sepsis&meningitis) 33min average, with 90% in 1hr 14. If the service was on escalation and not sending on cat3s it's likely reached a time when the response times are in that bad final outlying 10% zone where you're looking at 4-24hour estimated response times.

When demand is high and resources run out the goalposts change as was the case during the call in question i.e. cat3 which is normally blue light response, becomes a no send must make own way or goto GP. This is just the consequence of being overwhelmed and they have to triage. It's often more appropriate/you'll arrive at A&E quicker in an emergency if you take a taxi/family give you a lift so if it's a life threatening emergency I honestly would say think hard about whether you can afford to wait for an ambulance, if the illness/injury means you are unable to make own way than this is what the ambulance service is for.

It would certainly be interesting to have listened to the call. The people who have listened to the call say it was appropriately managed for the answers given at the call, there are several breathing related questions and call takers are not allowed to question the veracity of the caller - so ultimately in the call it's very unlikely that anyone said 'she can't breath'.

People can deteriorate really very quickly and unexpectedly. It's quite possible that at 0520 she had symptoms that wouldn't have looked out of place in a GP surgery waiting room, that her symptoms were accurately described at the time the call was made, but really sadly suddenly worsened. This can happen to anyone unfortunately and that's why worsening advice is critical to give/understand and act on. For instance I see loads of kids with worried parents who present at the very first instance of fever to be 'checked out', unfortunately in the very first onset meningitis will present in similar fashion to standard viral infection, so the checkup itself is essentially pointless (at the very early stages) but the information pack I'll send with the parents for them to read about deteriorating signs/sepsis/meningitis could make all the difference, if they read it! (I talk through the salient points of course but people in those settings often can't be relied on to take on board more than 3 pieces of info so you have to pick carefully).

Very sad to hear about a potentially avoidable death. If the services weren't overwhelmed she would have likely had an ambulance response by 6am. I don't see funding increasing in a meaningful way to keep up with demand, I can't imagine we're actually going to do anything that stops people calling who were able to make own way/get calls to reduce so as time goes on the ambulance service will be saying no to more and more people when they ask for an ambulance because the fact is there aren't any to send at that time so they're afforded the option to say no.

SleepyRich · 18/02/2024 00:40

Crooklodge · 18/02/2024 00:03

When I was 30 my dh phoned the drs begging for a home visit as I couldn't breathe properly, I'm too young was the answer. I had pnemonia, collapsed lung and sepsis. There needs to be accountability too to bottom.

I actually think this was a sensible call from the GP - if a 30yr old normally well (i.e. not housebound) is suddenly so ill from illness that they couldn't get to a gp surgery then the GP should absolutely not be going to the house - it's advice to either goto A&E or call 999.

PawsisShady · 18/02/2024 00:48

JaneIves · 17/02/2024 18:02

A call to the ambulance service is only as good as the information provided by the caller to the call taker.
Yes call handlers read from scripts which are used nationally and internationally (obviously some variants)
Call handlers cannot deviate from these scripts, or ask their own questions. Call handlers are not medically trained, you don't need to be as the Medical priority dispatcher system should be robust enough, which goes back to my first point.

It's a tragic situation. Depending on the transcript of the call, it could be the caller is at fault for not giving correct information and not acting further when the patient declined.

I am not a call handler, I am a paramedic.
In my opinion, call handlers have one of the hardest jobs in the service. Low paid, constant abuse from callers and constant scrutiny from watch managers trying to reach unattainable targets set by a useless fucking government.

That ^^

If you sent an ambulance on the highest categories to everyone who said they had difficulty breathing, there would be no ambulances

There's a difference and call handlers look for key words which I won't post. If you're speaking to someone who says they're having difficulty breathing but they can complete a full sentence, that's different to someone who can get one word out and is gasping for air

And they rely on what they're given. Details changed but I took a call for a hand injury. The call was pulled after and listened back to, the caller omitted to mention the patient had been gored by a bull Confused and had massive chest injuries. Not a single mention of chest injury, or a bull...

Sunnnybunny72 · 18/02/2024 07:45

Crooklodge · 18/02/2024 00:03

When I was 30 my dh phoned the drs begging for a home visit as I couldn't breathe properly, I'm too young was the answer. I had pnemonia, collapsed lung and sepsis. There needs to be accountability too to bottom.

You couldn't breathe properly? And rang the GP?
Not appropriate. If you can't breathe properly that's an emergency, not sure what you thought a GP could do. You needed A&E.

Toddlerteaplease · 18/02/2024 08:31

CostelloJones · 17/02/2024 23:51

I’m sorry but if my family member was blatantly that unwell and told there was no ambulance I would be taking them to A&E myself that second.

Absolutely this! I'm not sure I'd have called in the first place. I'd have just taken them anyway.

CostelloJones · 18/02/2024 09:21

As a side not to this story - Knowing how stretched the ambulance service are I am inclined to just take family myself anyway rather than wait for an ambulance unless it’s a cpr/can’t move them situation

a couple of years ago I fell at 34 weeks pregnant and had to wait for 4 hours for someone to help me up. DH couldn’t move me otherwise I would have made my way there myself

Sapphire387 · 18/02/2024 09:31

Surely the issue is downgrading the Cat3 and saying urgent care OR call the GP. If she normally would have got an ambulance, surely they should have just been honest and said we have long waits, we advise you to get to A&E/UC by other means if at all possible. Not the GP!!

But tbh if anyone in my family was having that much trouble breathing, I would certainly take them myself if there was no ambulance available.

SD1978 · 18/02/2024 09:50

So the call handler should have been aware of a situation, that the family didn't see in person? Is the situation awful- absolutely. Should halo have come- yes. But they didn't call back despite the situation worse I guess and no family members present escalated the situation either.

Toddlerteaplease · 20/02/2024 18:25

The daughter has replied to my comment on the local news sure. Saying they didn't blame the ambulance service. But should have been told to take her to A&E.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread