To think the ambulance service weren't at fault here?

[Greenvelvetdress]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-68310754

Really sad story with a sad outcome but I do feel like in this situation the ambulance service weren't at fault. When the women rang she was told they wouldn't be sending an ambulance and to call back if she got worse.

Her son was in the house with her and her daughter in law states that if he'd been told to take her to a&e he would have done... surely he could have rung back or looked at how unwell his mum was and made this decision himself?

I do think the wait times for ambulances and the state of the NHS is appalling due to lack of funding but don't think they can be blamed for everything...

She said she couldn't breathe.
And was trying to ring the GP!

I keep seeing on here that people are using ambulances as taxi services or when they break a nail. How are these time wasters always getting ambulances sent when seriously I’ll people aren’t. There must be an issue with the script

Because so many time wasters know the buzz words to use to get them out. Once they get a crew out it doesn't mean they'll get treatment or taken to hospital but they get attendance

I work in a Police Control Room and we get calls all the time from the frequent flyers that quite honestly totally abuse the systems BUT they know exactly what things to say, things they know we & ambulance can't risk ignoring even though you know with certainty they're at best exaggerating - but usually just lying

We don’t know what was said on the phone call but if you’ve got 1 ambulance available and you receive a phone call for a heart attack and a phone call saying the patient is breathing and doesn’t appear life threatening, then they are going to send the ambulance to the heart attack.
They've said they were facing high demand so they had to send their limited resources to where they felt it was needed. There aren’t unlimited ambulances to send out “just in case”.

While she was still capable of being moved, why did her children not arrange to take her to an urgent treatment centre or A&E?

Did they really just sit there watching their mother deteriorate and wait to be told what to do?

People aren't getting ambulances unless needed.

In the last few months we've waited between 5-10 hours for an ambulance for unconscious post seizure, dislocated limbs and cannot get up etc.

If you call with something that isn't even an accident let alone serious illness you will not get an ambulance - you can't even get one when unconscious!

She called at 5.20 in the morning, I wonder if he stayed in bed not realising how serious it was until it was too late?

No, we don’t.

We do know that the investigation found that the call handler acted appropriately according to the script and the information provided.

We don’t know whether the script/algorithm was appropriate (we have not seen the questions and the article doesn’t comment on whether this aspect was investigated).

We don’t know whether the information provided to the call handler was accurate. And if it wasn’t, we don’t know why it wasn’t.

We don’t know whether if the patient or her family would have described different symptoms if they had called back, and we don’t know whether this would have made any difference to the advice.

Leaping to conclusions will not find the truth. You might think that the threshhold for sending an ambulance should be lower, and I would probably agree with you, but the lack of resource to do this is not the fault of the ambulance service.

The problem is that there is culture now of “not bothering the NHS.” They had been told it wasn’t urgent but they aren’t medical professionals and probably thought that if the emergency call handler had deemed it not urgent enough, then they were panicking unnecessarily. This forum is full of people saying “don’t go to A&E unless your leg is hanging off.” I understand why, because when you get there it’s horrific.

It’s not the ambulance service’s fault either. Ten years ago, 1) an ambulance would have come and this woman would probably have survived and 2) the family wouldn’t have second guessed themselves about using services.

This is because the NHS is being run into the ground.

"The last thing my brother said to her was 'have you got through to the doctors yet?'"

He saw her struggling to breathe whilst waiting in a GP telephone queue for help and still didn't take her to A&E.

Also, it was the son who called 999 at 5:20am.

If the call was audited and found to be compliant that means the call taker followed the correct pathway for the situation explained on the phone and the answers given.
They gave alternative options and also said to call back if she worsened. The family need to take some responsibility.

If he was the one who called, is it possible he downplayed the problem?

I think when you’re scared and worried you can take reassurance from being told that it’s not urgent and to call GP or whatever and keep telling yourself it’s not that bad.

But also I think you need to follow your instinct and disregard advice sometimes - I did this for my son when I was told ‘not urgent’ by 111; after 3 hours of waiting for a callback I took him to A&E where it became clear he was severely unwell and had I waited much longer he would have required ITU care.

The script they’re following doesn’t allow for actually human feeling; the story linked is incredibly sad and a lesson to us all to listen to our instincts.

many conditions or individuals don’t require an ambulance for transport to a&e, even though the condition needs to be treated in a&e. I don’t understand why someone would rely on an ambulance or wait for an ambulance if you have another option.

Can I suggest people get themselves an oximeter. They cost around £15. My DH is prone to chest infections and he was sent straight to A&E because we knew his oxygen levels when we rang up.

A call to the ambulance service is only as good as the information provided by the caller to the call taker.
Yes call handlers read from scripts which are used nationally and internationally (obviously some variants)
Call handlers cannot deviate from these scripts, or ask their own questions. Call handlers are not medically trained, you don't need to be as the Medical priority dispatcher system should be robust enough, which goes back to my first point.

It's a tragic situation. Depending on the transcript of the call, it could be the caller is at fault for not giving correct information and not acting further when the patient declined.

I am not a call handler, I am a paramedic.
In my opinion, call handlers have one of the hardest jobs in the service. Low paid, constant abuse from callers and constant scrutiny from watch managers trying to reach unattainable targets set by a useless fucking government.

YANBU, sad as it is

It can be very difficult.to get in front of a doctor for assessment these days, that's a major problem. My son ended up in hospital recently - the condition missed by a nurse at our local walk-in where we sat for 3 1/2 hours. I literally put a plan together with my work colleague as to how I was going to get him in front of a doctor because I knew he needed extra help.

Same walk-in misdiagnosed my son 5 years ago and I was told in no uncertain terms that he would not have woken up the next morning if I hadn't been persistent. Again, it was a nurse he saw not a doctor.

It's OK telling people to use their initiative but we really do need hcps who are qualified to diagnose and who have the time to speak to you properly and see the bigger picture.

The last thing my brother said to her was 'have you got through to the doctors yet?'"

He, the person with her, must have thought she was well enough to keep trying the gp herself instead of helping/phoning for her, calling 999 back or taking her to A+E himself.

If she appeared that well, 3 hours after the 999 call, it is more understandable why the operator did not pick up on the potential seriousness of her condition either.

The family is looking for someone to blame, in their hearts they will know the son could have done more, but that is too hard to swallow. A very sad outcome for all. Hope they all find peace soon and can grieve.

The family can complain as much as they want but they should have taken her themselves rather than fannying around.
Common sense should have been applied given the situation.

I agree that the family should have been more proactive and taken her to A&E. you can't just blindly follow what the call handlers say - certainly I've had some odd responses when I've needed to call them.

If you think they need urgent hospital treatment then you take them to A&E.

My thoughts exactly . Everyone knows that the ambulance service is stretched to a ridiculous point and if you can possibly get to hospital under your own steam then that is what you should do . It is a very unfortunate situation but it is not just the call handlers mistake .

Surely you'd call the GP right away, and if you couldn't get through you'd go to the urgent treatment centre as advised? Sure you might be waiting there for hours but then it would be the hospitals responsibility. I don't get why if you felt that unwell you'd wait at home?

She probably thought if they said GP or urgent treatment centre, then a GP would be the first port of call, and they wouldn't have been open until 8.30, if you can even get through then. Seems like she sadly died before 8.30.

However I don't understand why she was using precious energy calling the GP herself when her son could have called them...but then we can't always rely on our kids, even adult ones.

Very sad.

She also could have appeared to be breathing but just getting weaker as the oxygen wasn't getting through.

This!

I’m sorry but if my family member was blatantly that unwell and told there was no ambulance I would be taking them to A&E myself that second.