"A smart child will do well in any school" - not true?

[TBNT]

Inspired to ask this due to another thread.

But it's something that's been said to me countless times over the years when looking at the (pretty awful) schools in our local area.

I have always politely nodded while thinking in my head "I'm pretty sure my very academic, yet nerdy and socially anxious child wouldn't do very well in that school"

And until reading on here today hadn't seen that opinion expressed elsewhere and just felt like I was being unreasonable in my own head.

So just that really - I've heard of kids coming out of rough comps with loads of 9s. But I genuinely feel that a child like my eldest DD would not achieve what she's capable of in a place she felt uncomfortable.

There's does okay in comparison to others in the school
Done well
And done the best they can.

For my 3 dc, I can see they'd all have benefitted from a smaller private school with lots of opportunities. I wish we could have but we couldn't afford it for one let alone three.

But my dc ideally would have benefitted from different schools to each other too. They all went to the same comprehensive.
Dd1 had a perfectionist streak, always worked hard at all times even if she didn't like the subject. She was always striving to get the best. She would have been better at a school that did fewer GCSEs (she did 16 GCSEs and got mostly A/A*s) so she could concentrate more on the ones she did, as she spent far too long working and trying to achieve perfect results and with a good range of extra curricular things that she could be part of, which would have benefitted her socially. She'd also have benefitted from competition in her better subjects at times.

Dd2 did well on extra curriculars where she was because they suited her and she got into a couple of niche ones, at least partially by the stint of them being traditionally male ones; she was normally one of two girls amount 20-40 boys, so she got opportunities there.
However what she needed was a school that didn't just fall for the wide blue eyes and tell her she was doing well enough. She needed to have teachers that pushed her, and would say to her that just doing it wasn't good enough, or fall for the excuses why she hadn't done it. She'd also have benefitted from less distractions.

Ds works if he likes the subject. He's also inclined to do enough to keep out of trouble and no more. Again he'd have benefitted from being pushed more and more extra curriculars he could do.

So yes, they're all bright and did okay. Yes, they could have all achieved greater results. But more, I think they'd have been happier in a school that suited them better, especially dd1.

Not true at all.

My bright ds started at primary school, a cheerful little soul, enthusiastic and boisterous. It was fine until yr 4, then he outgrew them and they held him back, tried to bully him into sitting still & shutting up.

By year 6 he was angry, frustrated, bored, being turned off school.

I moved him to a school that wanted him to extend himself. Now he's happy, confident, engaged, back on track. Different schools suit different children.

I'm also a teacher and I agree 100% with you.

Depends what you mean by well.

Emotionally and socially? Tbf that's not a guarantee in any school.

Academically? Again .. what do you mean by well? Excel and fully achieve their potential?Probably not. Be average/slightly above average? Yes, definitely.

YANBU.
I work with young people. I have worked with many, many extremely bright young people who have struggled and not done well in a variety of schools, for many different reasons. School can throw so many things in the way of academic success and being intelligent alone doesn't determine how well a young person does.

Bright children will do well anywhere is often said as a sop to those who didn't get their first choice of secondary. It polite and well meaning. Unfortunately it's not necessary true.

It's also arguably easier to get a higher P8 score in a stable school. DD's school is 5.9 and well above average. It's a well regarded, over subscribed girls school where teachers want to work and has a high level of parental support.

I also know schools that are below and well below average. They struggle to recruit and retain staff and serve demographics with multi-generational disinterest in education. It is hard to see how they will turn around their P8 or how bright children will do well in such environments.

How old is he now and how have things panned out?

In my experience smart idle dickheads still end up with extremely lucrative careers. Irritated me though it does.

Academic prowess isn't everything. In fact strong success under age 21 is zero prediction of career/earnings success? Often the skills you need for that end up failing you in work. Being conscientious doesn't make you stand out in the workplace

It's nonsense and we all know it.
However my v resilient dd1 probably would have been ok at the comp as she's v focused but I wouldn't risk it and I'm v happy with her grammar.

A smart child will do ok in any school.

A smart child at an amazing school, with two parents together, who own their own home, have a household income over over 100k, who takes part in many after school clubs, plays an instrument and sports, can take on the world.

I’m bright and did well at a London comp but I hated every minute of it. I felt like an outsider because I was one and my ‘friends’ weren’t always kind to me. I got lots of A*s though

My brother backs this up I'm afraid.

He was a super geeky nerd, bullied badly at a very mediocre comp.

Got into Cambridge, studied Maths, Big Four accountancy now earning a mint in some sort of specialised tax role.

I don’t agree with this. My DD has gone to state schools. Primary outstanding and she left with greater depth. Secondary a good school but she is in top set and doing well.

Both schools have their challenges. Despite the first being outstanding the standards dropped and behaviour went down hill for the last few years.I’ve had to make sure that I intervened whenever there were issues with other children as I know if I didn’t she would have been miserable and it would have affected self esteem, interest in subjects (which one incident did) which I think is a massive oversight when we think about children and education,

I think the secondary school she is in has teachers that are rooting for her and because of that I think it massively helps.

I was always told I was smart when younger but was never really given the confidence boost and just got on with things because I was no bother - I think with more encouragement I would have done so much better.

If the school is rubbish - as a parent we have to make sure we install the confidence and push passion daily.

A smart child will probably get through but there are so many other skills and circumstances that play into this (e.h. Billing, personal interest, encouragement etc)

But if he was bullied that's dreadful!

For me, there is more to school than what qualifications your DC leave with and the problem with stats is they do not chart how your DC interacted with the environment within the school.
Every child is an individual, so on paper it may seem that a bright child will do well in any school but as many have attested on this thread that is not the reality.

I do think personality does have a big part to play but even a leafy comp or public school can have issues with bullying. An acquaintance of mines DS went to the best independent school by results in the county, he didn’t make a single friend. He has many traits of being ND.

DS did very well in a very rough comp with bad results in the league tables. All top grades at GCSE and A level for him.

I also went to a rough comp in a different area and did well and ended up studying at a RG University. At one point the staff room had a bike lock put on the doors so staff members were trapped inside, they were probably relieved they didn’t have to teach for an hour or two, this was one amongst many other incidences.

It was very much a time to be alive, though I did feel sorry for the teachers. Like DS I was in top sets so behaviour was a bit better. DH went to a very well regarded all boys public school, it sounded incredibly bloody boring. DH is quiet and DS and I are outgoing and can chat to anyone and are able to make people laugh, it makes life easier. DH would have had an awful time at my school as he is a sensitive soul.

I changed my name for this. I totally agree @TBNT it's just not true.

Eldest DD is very bright. But she has other risk factors some of which @Mangledrake mentioned and while she was predicted top marks and was perfectly capable for them several things that happened meant there was a huge drop in achievement and was just generally not happy at school anymore. It hugely impacted her mental health and well-being, confidence and many other things.

She was in a small private school for upper primary and early high school years (9-13) and still says she wishes she'd transitioned to another private school. While she did very well ages 13-15 (top 5% of a large comp in every subject, top 1% in some) and had friends, the lack of teacher engagement, the just being a number, the serious incidents that happened at the school, the behaviours of peers, it just didn't work for her. She also says she was doing harder work at age 13 than she is now...

I think there are many things that prevent dc from thriving. There is not one environment that is right for every child - nothing to do with state school vs private, not all state, nor all private, schools are alike. So much depends on teachers for that year group, peers, and other individual factors...

My bright DD did extremely well but either taught herself or we organised tutors outside of school.
She felt the school did not focus on the bright kids but more on getting the majority to pass. She was not pushed, hated school for five years, hid in the toilets or the library at break times and her mental health was shot to pieces.
Fortunately in sixth form she has found her place and is recovering from the trauma of secondary school.

DS went to a school which was in special measures, he got A*/As at GCSE, I don't things he would have done any better anywhere else. His friends also got good results.

As mentioned by a couple of others, academic success and ‘doing well’ are not the same thing. A child who has left with a string of As and A*s but has no resilience and mental health is at its lowest because they’ve been relentlessly bullied is not the definition of a success story to me.

The better school in our area did not have a good track record on bullying at the time so good schools have bullying as well

As many others have said, I think if someone is very bright and highly motivated, they would probably be able to achieve to a high standard in most schools, as they would focus their time outside of school on catching up on what they hadn’t managed to cover in school. There is so much now available online, including full course specifications, past papers and sample schemes of learning that for an able and motivated student this is entirely possible. However, the emotional cost may be huge, and it feels horrifically unfair that they should have to do this as a consequence of the school they attend when they could benefit from extra-curricular activities or simply having some down time if they were somewhere else.

I went to a state comprehensive where results were strong and it was in a “nice” area, and achieved almost all A/A* grades at GCSE. However, I spent five years feeling miserable, being bullied by exclusion and being laughed at for being academic and wanting to achieve well. I then moved to a very highly regarded local faith school to join their Sixth Form to study A-Levels and loved every minute. To this day, I wish I had gone there from the age of 11; whilst still a state school it was a world away from the experiences of the previous five years, and I flourished there and went on to study at a Russell Group university and have had good jobs ever since.

On the other hand, my DM went to an independent girls’ grammar school, where she thrived academically, but hated the ethos as the girls were apparently told regularly by staff in assemblies and classrooms that they were “the cream of [insert town name]”, and that they should “strive to have the best” (not be the best they could be - big difference!). Her experience was why it wasn’t considered for me. Neither of us had an entirely positive experience, for very different reasons.

Our own DD (age 9) is currently in a beautifully nurturing but not wonderfully well-organised state primary school. The nurturing ethos suits her perfectly, with kindness and caring at its core. We’re currently organising dyslexia assessments for her, and are starting to seriously consider independent (not where my DM went - one with a nurturing ethos and a strong track record for supporting bright dyslexic children) from age 11 as she’s bright, but her spelling is all over the place. She’s also a worrier and a people pleaser, something we’re also working to support her with. She wouldn’t cope academically or emotionally in a class of 30+ where there may be some boisterous/disruptive behaviour - she’s miserable when she comes home if there has been any disruption during the day in her current class, and can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to listen and learn.

My experience goes against what a lot on MN say. My DC failed the 11+ and got into a grammar on appeal. The vast majority of people say this is very bad and that DC will struggle and tutoring will be needed and MH will suffer blah blah. DC was desperate to go to the grammar so we fought to get them in.

DC is now Y13 and predicted AAA at A level, having had a great secondary experience at the grammar. Being surrounded by DC that want to do well academically has undoubtedly made a difference. Very little class disruption, friends comparing revision times and notes, and not the hot house either that lots lead you to believe. It’s all been done with a light touch from the school and we have been nowhere near tutoring.

This is because the school is good and DC is surrounded by likeminded pupils. Many comprehensives in other parts of the country are also great, but many more are really difficult places to learn. Which is why so many unis recognise this and offer DC that have been those schools contextual offers to recognise the challenges and hurdles they’ve had to overcome to do well.

So of course a bright child can do well at a sink school - but in many instances they will need to overcome multiple hurdles and also be a certain personality type to cope.

It depends on their personality and circumstances think. I suspect I would have as a child, but not my sister who is incredibly smart and driven but has some additional needs. Smart kids with additional needs may not do so well in a school that cannot meet those needs.

I went to a rural comp that had low outcomes but got straight As at GCSE. I just worked hard.

To be honest a school only contributes so much to a child's outcome. The biggest contributor is the parents and their attitude towards learning.

If a parent supports the school and supports their child, the child will do well.

Doing well isn't just about good grades though...

When looking at primary schools for my eldest, my health visitor who was doing checks for my younger child said to me that sometimes it pays to be a smart kid from a good home in a rough school because they would very likely be pushed by teachers to succeed to assist with the overall average of the class...dd doesn't go to a rough school but that has stuck with me as probably true.