"A smart child will do well in any school" - not true?

[TBNT]

Inspired to ask this due to another thread.

But it's something that's been said to me countless times over the years when looking at the (pretty awful) schools in our local area.

I have always politely nodded while thinking in my head "I'm pretty sure my very academic, yet nerdy and socially anxious child wouldn't do very well in that school"

And until reading on here today hadn't seen that opinion expressed elsewhere and just felt like I was being unreasonable in my own head.

So just that really - I've heard of kids coming out of rough comps with loads of 9s. But I genuinely feel that a child like my eldest DD would not achieve what she's capable of in a place she felt uncomfortable.

Absolutely this.

Very few bright children will be self motivated enough to ignore their environment and reach their full potential.

I've been amazed at my DCs school and the support and encouragement they provide - children want to do well. At my shit comprehensive there were no expectations and it wasn't cool to try - we were encouraged to think of jobs like lab assistants, admin workers. I can't recall anyone aiming for professions like medicine or law. We weren't even taught the curriculum beyond A grade, no ambitions to get us to A* level.

I was really academic & nerdy and not great socially.

I came out of my poor comprehensive school with top grades and went to a great university, on to a high regarded grad scheme and now in a very well paid job.

The only real downside was I didn't have a great time friendship wise. I was bullied to a minor degree, mainly in the sense of being rather deliberately excluded at times. I drifted - not often totally alone but often on the edge of a group and looking back? They tolerated me, they didn't like me. I didn't "fit" with that mainly unaspiring crowd. I didn't really stay in touch with people from school for more than a couple of years afterwards.

As an adult? I'm really happy, great job, loads of lovely friends, met my wonderful husband at uni, and it really doesn't matter a jot that I don't have a clutch of school friends.

Parenting makes a bigger difference. FWIW DH sister went to a top, in demand private and came away from it with wprse grades than mine, anorexia, and not particularly great friendships.

@PrimitivePerson are you me?? :) I was exactly the same at my grammar school. Hated every second and switched off from my learning, just plodded on until the end of 6th form. In hindsight, I think I would have done better at my local comp. My eldest is in year 7 at our local comp and he is thriving and loving school and the extra curricular stuff. Not all schools suit all children.

Yet not all parents choose to do this despite having the means. I went to one of the worst schools in the country. So bad my friend’s parents wouldn’t send their dcs there and they were a very ordinary family; my friend trained as a hairdresser, her brother a builder.

My mother otoh used to crow at me about her education at a very prestigious grammar. At my school, the teachers missed out swathes of subject matter eg in maths there was no choice between A and B as we hadn’t been taught B. Unsurprisingly I got mediocre passes. Bs and Cs.

None of this stopped my parents from leaving me to rot in this awful school when they had the means to pay for decent education… or even just send me to a better school a few miles down the road.

A lot of secondary school choice is largely about social engineering.

A school in the UK which is predominantly full of children from disadvantaged and working class backgrounds will by and large be considered a 'bad' school on mumsnet, regardless of its progress 8 score, how well it's managed or how committed and hard working its teachers are.

My son went to a massive comprehensive with a mix of kids from a wide range of backgrounds and achieved very highly - but he has ASD, and doesn't give a sh*t about what anyone thinks of him.

Our school system is horrifically socially polarised and it's really damaging to many children. I'm always staggered that people are so blind to it, and accepting of this as it's absolute poison for kids from ordinary families.

I posted on the other thread about my experience - I think school environment and teaching makes a big difference.

I did well at GCSE and degree level, but very poorly at A level (different school to GCSEs). I suspect if I'd stuck at the same school I would have done better.

But if you are stuck with rubbish school, there are other ways you can support like tutors.

Yes and this applies to pretty much everything on this globe on an internationally level. That’s how the world works.
But what we can do as a nation is narrow the gap between the rich and poor by spending more money on education to make sure that the future generation has had the best start in life regardless of their income.
Ultimately, they will be the future tax payers and innovators etc. if we don’t nurture this generation, then the country has no future.

No i dont think so, i've been to governor meetings at 4 secondary schools recently, all looking at attaintment and progress 8. Some schools are doing better with their cohort than others. Some schools really coast with high prior attainers. They still do ok but not as well as they shoukd have done. Other schools are known as 'bad' on attainmeng but actually really bring everyone forward.

Thats before you even get to issues like bulling, motivation and feeling safe or enjoying school, other oportunites etc.

@izimbra

Our school system is horrifically socially polarised and it's really damaging to many children. I'm always staggered that people are so blind to it, and accepting of this as it's absolute poison for kids from ordinary families.

I agree with you but what do you expect people to do?

It’s true that the schools system fails many children but I don’t accept the logic that putting your children in a failing school when you can afford not to helps this. I wasn’t going to throw my kid under a bus by sending her to a school where I know she would struggle if I could afford not to just to make a point about bucking the inequality in the system.

If the choice is between principles and your child, the child will win hands down every time. As they should. This isn’t going to change until we as a society address the problems in our education system.

There's actually a lot like us out there. Research has suggested that grammar schools only actually benefit a very small number of the pupils that attend them, and for the rest, the additional stress piled on them can make their academic performance worse.

Unfortunately my parents held very conservative views and thought comprehensives were evil hotbeds of liberalism. My sister did very badly at a comp, and my parents blamed the ethos of the school, failing to notice that my sister was actually developing catastrophic mental health problems.

So...they did everything they could to get me into a grammar school that TOTALLY didn't suit me and caused me quite a few problems. I spent my whole time there keeping my head down and trying not to get noticed, by both staff and other pupils.

When people hear I'm anti-grammar schools they think it's because I'm bitter about not getting into one. I'm bitter because I did!!!

I agree OP.

I grew up on an estate in one of the lower deciles for deprivation. I went to a good selective church secondary school and most of my primary school peers went to the not very good local secondary.

A lot of kids from my good school, even the middle of the road ones, went to university. Loads of the smart kids I remember from primary didn't go to uni at all, or if they did it wasn't to the 'prestigious' or RG ones. I know that isn't a measure for success but it does seem like their options were limited by going to that school.

There will always be exceptions. My primary best friend did well despite going to the local school. She got a first from a good uni in a very academic subject and was then handpicked for a PhD which she completed in record time, and then suggested for a job in the civil service. She is smarter than me (or anyone else I know) and talented in multiple ways (also very down to earth!) but despite that I outperformed her in exams at school (she got mostly Bs and I got mostly A stars) and I even got a higher grade at GCSE in the subject she ended up studying at uni. At a better school she would have had straight A stars without a problem.

Edited to add "stars" the * symbols made the text bold instead 😅

I believe a very small amount of children will do well in any school but the majority won't they would need to be very mentally strong and confident which most teenagers are not. I did really well in primary and loved learning but when I went to a 💩 hole of a secondary I lost all interest. As friends and boyfriends where more important and I only cared about fitting in and being popular I left school with zero gcses and a baby.

I’m torn on this.

In a way yes, they will likely do well wherever if they are bright.

However, and this is a personal experience of mine, they will do well despite it and it may harm them in other ways. I went to a rough comprehensive, had friends, was a bit geeky and loved learning but tried so hard to be a ‘ghost’ to keep myself safe in the absolutely wild environment. Think Waterloo road.

This strategy was successful in that I kept under the radar of everyone including teachers. I worked under the own steam and got good results. It was an endurance, not an education. It affected me long term in how I speak up for myself, how uncomfortable I feel in new situations, down to how I choose which seat to sit in so I don’t have ‘bullies’ behind me.

So yes on paper I did well but as an adult it’s taken me a long time to change some of these behaviours and it would always be better to be somewhere where you fit in and can learn in a optimal way.

@PrimitivePerson I’m just the same! I’m anti-grammar because of my experiences. I was so confident at my primary school and worked hard and enjoyed learning. But grammar school knocked the confidence out of me and all my independence and love of learning. I feel sad looking back and wish things had been different. I love seeing how happy my son is at his school now. The school he attends doesn’t just focus on academia, it encourages the pupils to become well rounded human beings. He’s very bright and enjoys learning and does well. I felt my school sucked all the joy out of learning and even at the start of year 7 it was all about learning just to do well in exams. Because of that, I’ve turned into a very superficial learner.

Tbh there’s probably some truth in it and some non truth in it. Same as private schools some ppl say you can’t make steak outta mince. If ur child is naturally clever and bright they will likely do ok at school. If they struggle they will struggle more in a rough school. Private schooling you only get in if u pass tests so obvz their results look better

I left secondary school 22 years ago with 7 A*s and 3 As at GCSE. The school was an absolute sinkhole, more like a zoo than a school at times, kids in my year left with 24% 5 A-Cs - the worst they'd ever had apparently.

But my school life was hell - absolutely bullied constantly - found out I'm autistic aged 35 but back then you didn't have a choice but to put up and shut up so I did. My home life was awful too so there was no point telling anyone - in fact my own mum never knew the extent of it until about 2 years ago!

School only really works for a minority of children, we could only really say otherwise if we had a higher proportion of kids achieving 5 good passes at 4-5+.

Having seen the difference moving my young child from a crap school to a good school, I am firmly in the "kids can't learn anywhere" camp. Happy children learn, a child who feels unsafe, who's needs are not considered, who is not encouraged or inspired by the adults around them, a child who is ignored, bullied, or unsupported will not be able to learn.

@UnaPeacock Haha, I'm glad it's not just me. It's taken me a long time to recover from what happened to me, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone else.

"As soon as I escaped to a half decent sixth form outside the area, I obtained straight A grades at A level and was offered places at Oxford and Cambridge based on my tutor’s recommendation."

@Notmyfirstusername I thought you could only apply to one or the other? 🤔

It's not just about grades though. It's about being able to go beyond the syllabus and really enjoy learning. Do extra-curriculars. Really learn to speak a language properly. Good schools offer so much more than 9s

It depends what doing “well” means and if we value wellbeing as much or more as academic results. I hope we do.

If academic results are the only focus then they may well get very good results in a rough school. That depends on the child and their teachers; I got excellent GCSE results in a rough school in a very deprived area. I also was miserable and bullied over multiple periods during the time I was there, but often by the other children from middle-class backgrounds.

On the other hand when I arrived at university I was really shocked by the stories of wide spread eating disorders, huge drug use and as well as even worse bullying from girls who had attending posh boarding schools or selective grammars. Teenagers with money and/or supportive parents can still be absolutely vicious to anyone they perceive as weaker. Academic results at their schools of course were outstanding.

If we think about the long term affect on people’s mental health, then exposure to a high pressure environment (perhaps particularly for girls in single sex schools) in an academically well-regarded school doesn’t necessarily breed happy well-adjusted 18-year-olds with a healthy relationship with food.

School is preparing us for life, not just for work, it depends on the individual child what the best environment will be for that. It’s not just rough school v academically good school.

The peer group is one of the biggest motivators to a teenager. Bright friends with ambition set a higher bar.

I'm a firm believer that you can't really tell whether a school will suit your child based on results or an ofsted judgement. I think it comes down to the culture of the school and whether they make good friends. Things like staff turnover are important as well.

t's horrendously unfair that so many children like DD1 can't escape the life she was stuck in at her state primary school.

@TBNT yes it is. It's a disgrace.

Getting good grades is not the same as actively learning. It is not the same as being their best self.

students that are allowed to coast, don’t actually learn how to study and learn. They think everything will come easy and then one day eventually it doesn’t, but they lack the toolset to meet the challenge. That day might not even come until they are adults, but part of the purpose of school is to learn to face a challenging problem and assimilate the information to understand and solve it. Every child deserves to learn that skill, even if they are bright or gifted.