Toddler's new school think he's autistic & they can't cope

[Frenchmartini02]

We live overseas, DS (3yo) moved from nursery to a private montessori school 2 months ago. We haven't had any concerns raised or feedback during this time, maybe the odd comment at pickup, nothing formal. We had a parents evening this week to discuss how things are going. They told us that they felt his behaviour was not age appropriate and they had concerns for the the safety of other children. They told me that DS had been throwing scissors, running with scissors, hitting teachers & children, pulling hair, taking teachers glasses, trying to bite. They think he doesn't make eye contact, does unusual things with his hands, and is unable to interact socially with his peers, but is very clever and affectionate. They propose that we reduce the hours he does - currently in for 5 hours per day 4 days a week, they suggest to do 4 hours to see if it helps. They've said they would like me to ask his pediatrician for an assistant to shadow him.
I suspected my DS had some behavioural issues before he started school but wanted to see how he found school as I'd had some issues at home. But he had attended nursery for 2 years right up until starting school and they didn't have any concerns or problems and reassured me that they thought his behaviour was in line with his peers. I have seen the pediatrician this week and he has been referred for an assessment.

My AIBU is that I feel the school has handled it badly? They didn't explicitly say they think my son is autistic but strongly implied it and I feel they looked for signs that fit the profile. If my son was throwing scissors, hurt a teacher or pupil etc I would expect to have been told on the day it happened - I feel that this has been sprung on me with no reference to dates, timing, triggers so I can't get a bigger picture of when it happened. They acknowledge that he was not behaving like this when he started but that it's got progressively worse but can't tell me from when or recall specific incidents. He's also only been there for 2 months with Christmas break in between so it doesn't feel like very long for settling in and he's in a class with mixed ages 3-5. Whilst they came across as sympathetic and supportive during the meeting I also felt like they were looking for a way to remove him as a pupil. Also that they lack any kind of experience in this.
Obviously an assistant for DS will only be an option if he receives a diagnosis that supports that which is likely to take at least 6 months.
My gut feeling is to remove him, but that's off topic. First I need to work out how to tackle the school.

I agree knowing earlier would have been good. But the flip side is how many parents are annoyed/angered by being called in or having formally documented every little transaction of their young child.

If there’s a range of staff involved they might not have realised how many different issues there were until they prepared for parents’ day. Or maybe they thought this is the point of this catchup.

I don’t agree that there should be no surprises at the meeting. The point of the meeting is to update you near to the start of the child’s time there. They’ve allowed some settling in time - and then arrange to meet and discuss progress.

It might also be worth going back to his previous place and talking with the staff. Did they notice any of this behaviour and maybe just dismissed it as - well 2 year olds pull hair and throw things? Maybe these are new behaviours. I’m no expert, but I do know children who saw rapid regression of behaviour as a toddler due to disability. This could all be new and the link to the new school coincidental. They might be new BECAUSE the school is wrong for the child.

The school is right to ask you have your child assessed by a professional. They aren’t wrong to point out that your child is not coping and that maybe a shorter day would help. I know an autistic child that started with late arrivals and early departure for exactly that reason - a full day was just too much. The child was assessed and provided support and while delayed did start formal school full time alongside peers. But at nursery age - they did not cope.

1. You had some concerns of your own and you didn't share them.
2. Most people would err on side of caution before suggesting referral until around 3 years old.
3. The nursery have obviously been observing and working out whether they are seeing a child with behavioural issues or a child who is struggling to settle and may be slightly behind developing or a child with a special need.
4. There is never a good time to hear this news. Your last line about dealing with the school is very telling. You need to focus on working with them to get his needs assessed not waste time and energy on blaming them.
5. He may be fine but you need to prepare for difficult news. It is often when children do present to school or a nursery setting that their needs seem more obvious. The setting has lots of demands and this increases behaviours. The staff know what typical development looks like.

I have children with additional needs and I also remember resenting the nursery manager pulling me aside to talk about ds. I was upset and was focusing on the wrong thing. You sound like you are too.

I wonder if the setting doesn't suit your son? Was your son in a Montessori nursery or just a normal one?

As mentioned above the Montessori approach is very different to normal nursery. There is a lot of independence expectations in Montessori settings - more so than a normal nursery. Little things like been able to pour own drinks from a jug into a cup, putting almost all own clothes on and able to take them off independently. Cutting up own snacks. Laying tables and cleaning up after meals. In normal nursery often practitioners cut up snacks and lay them out, drinks are poured into cups and set out. Plates may be collected at meal times. Maybe there is an element of frustration here playing out. Especially if the setting is a follow on setting from a Montessori nursery where lots of those basics are modelled from very very young ages so by 3 they are automatic and experts at them.

As said above too, they are calmer, quieter settings and whilst there is outside time they do not always have the continuous outdoor provision. They generally suit calm, quiet children and so the staff will be used to calm, quiet children. If your DS has come from a normal nursery with continuous outside provision and lots and lots of chance for physical activity and lots of running about then again he may be frustrated with the slower pace of Montessori classrooms.

Some children with Asd really need lots of time outside for regulation. They need that chance to burn energy and without it it comes out in behavior.

There may well be something there and it's worth exploring it. It's also worth thinking about the provision that suits your DS and their personality.

Wondering if its france as they seem to have very low asd rates etc

The resson asd etc kids seem to have such bad behaviour can be
Not responding to social hierarchy
Stubbornness around what they want to do
Searching for sensory things
Not wanting to sit down next to other kids

Its not about parentng then and discipline etc

Some of the things listed by dd y2 teacher was
Picking nose
Flicking water at other kids (who were also doing that)

I can see why you feel blindsided, as a teacher parents evening should never be a surprise

Argh. I hate this! Also as a teacher, this suggests I need to keep all my parents up to date at all times (I teach over 100 pupils)... the whole point of parents' evening and reports is to feed back on how pupil is doing. If the parent knows everything already, what is the point of parents' evening?

Now, as for the OP, I wouldn't be very happy if I wasn't made aware of anything at all over a long period of time. However, it is possible that, as isolated incidents, they weren't serious enough to be reported to the parent. All together, they have become a culmination and the bigger picture is more evident- hence them raising it. They wouldn't want to raise concerns unnecessarily - parents often react really badly to being told negative things about their child. For what it's worth, I really wish my child's nursery had had a similar meeting with me as they just turned a blind eye. It's good they care enough to raise it with you.

Either way, what does it matter now? Surely the best thing for your child is for you and the nursery to work together to support your son. Moaning about how they have 'handled it won't help, but working constructively with them will. Focus on that.

Sounds like they have handled it very well and are still prepared to look after your DS in spite of his challenging behaviour. I think you should work with them.

There is no point in surprising parents with something if you actually want them to engage with problem solving around the issue.

Is the same with any management issue. Calling people into a routine meeting and blindsiding them with nonroutine problems is not a route to successful problem solving. It also tends to have a negative impact on relationships and trust.

My experience of Montessori is that the preschools are charalatins that do not respect or comply with legal requirements. The parents (almost all Mums, as Dad's seem to be totally sidelined or absent) are bonkers. And the children are all violent.

Though this could be specific to where I live

I agree with what @surreygirl1987 says.

I do agree that when a child is at school full time, then a Parents Evening 6 or more months in shouldn't be the first time anything is raised but this isn't the case here.

He attends 4 days a week and has only been there 2 months. Generally a Nursery would give a child they had concerns about a good 6 weeks to settle. At which point, they would think "We will be seeing *Frenchmartini02" in the next couple of weeks anyway - we'll have a chat then and mention the concerns we have".
That is very different from a Year 7 having parents evening in May and that being the first time the school have spoken with the parents since them starting in September.

There is no point in surprising parents with something if you actually want them to engage with problem solving around the issue.

You do realise that the first time a teacher raises something will likely be a surprise, no matter WHEN it is raised! 🤦‍♀️

I have never had a parent not interested in working together to solve a problem relating to their child either... I'd be pretty shocked and appalled if that were the case!

Montessori was terrible for my ASC/ADHD DS. Much too unstructured and child led. All sorts of behavioural issues, he nearly got expelled but I took him out.

The best environment for DS was Victorian Day at school! No noise or distractions, no group work, clear rules and boundaries, less interaction with other children so fewer social issues/bullying. Did his best work (like a different child!!) and was the happiest!

Yes they were right to highlight their concerns, they have likely experienced similar behaviours and diagnosis before. Yes ask them to feedback on the day. Importantly ask them to feed back what happened in the lead up to the behaviours. Yes change can be very difficult for people with autism, this would explain why he thrived in his last nursery but struggled to adapt in his present nursery. In your opinion what are the main differences between the nurseries, was the previous nursery more structured and routine, smaller, quieter?

totally agree that you should have been told about scissor throwing, hitting, biting on the day at collection time. It’s strange they haven’t.

I agree, it seems all badly behaved kids now get a label to excuse them for their poor behaviour

But honestly, what has he actually done?

Thrown a pair of scissors? He's three, he doesn't realize the danger.

Bitten someone? Tons of small kids bite, it's not that unusual?

As a pp said, surely he just behaving like a normal small child

does unusual things with his hands, and is unable to interact socially with his peers

^
Like playing alone, rather than with others? Which I think is normal at that age.

Just to reiterate I am not angry with the school or working against them. If that was the case I wouldn't have gone to the pediatrician the day after the meeting to get a referral to the psychologist or immediately reduced my sons hours.

I'm sensing a gut feeling something is off with the school. My son was happy to attend up until a few weeks ago, he used to say he liked it, likes the "toys" likes the teachers etc. Then I went away for 4 days and my DH & MIL took care of him but during that time he was very very upset without me, recovering from a cold so that didn't help but barely ate whilst I was away, cried alot and I know for the 2 days he was at school during that time he hit a teacher.
Since then his behaviour has been worse at home and presumably worse in school, ive noticed him coming home with scratches on his face too. His speech is very good so I've asked him about what's happening in school, he will say he feels sad in school, he doesn't want to go, doesn't like the toys, and doesn't like one of the teachers (main one who cares for him - he's in 3 adjoining rooms, 3 teachers, 20 kids). I've noticed he's biting his nails (new thing) - when I'm talking to him about school he says his fingers are hurting (from biting them), I ask when did he start biting them, he says in school, I ask why, he says because of his teacher (main one). It's the main teacher who I think has taken the brunt of his aggression. This week I received an email to say that teacher was leaving, quite abruptly and she was being replaced so this may help. If I ask him why he hit someone in school his response is usually because "I want mummy, I don't like the toys at school, I want to stay at home".

My previous concerns raised to my pediatrician were about how angry he is, he has an explosive temper, always has, nothing works to control/manage it, it's often unpredictable and a pattern of behaviour that he's never grown out of. He keeps repeating. Often it's a reaction to "no, you can't, stop, or if I've asked him to do something he doesn't want to do - wash his hands or get dressed, go to the toilet". Sometimes it comes out of nowhere - he will pull my hair, try to bite my hair, throw things at me, swipe everything he can off the table, hitting, kicking" the only thing I can do stop it is hold his hands to physically stop him. Then the only thing that calms him is a cuddle. When he's calm I explain why it's not OK to do x,y,z and remove whatever has been thrown as a consequence. He will say he feels sad and angry.
Believe me I've tried every parenting method to tackle this - books about what to do when you feel like hitting, time outs, removing him from the situation (often effective), redirecting where possible, suggesting alternatives when he feels angry, ignoring bad behaviour (when safe to do so) and rewarding good I set boundaries - but nothing works - it often feels impulsive and more recently attention seeking.

This really stood out to me OP
Then I went away for 4 days and my DH & MIL took care of him but during that time he was very very upset without me, recovering from a cold so that didn't help but barely ate whilst I was away, cried alot and I know for the 2 days he was at school during that time he hit a teacher.

This is huge for such a young child, he say he wants to stay home with you, could he be developing an anxious attachment ? Is he just 3 or 3 nearly 4 ? You say you are not in the UK presumably he is not statutory school age ?

I would add that up until a few weeks ago he wasn't exhibiting this behaviour towards anyone else except me and close family. But obviously now it's extended to school and other children. We had a playdate with his besties at our home and it was the first time I'd seen him behave like that with his friends, he was very aggressive towards them to the extent I had to take him to another room to separate them. He kept saying he wanted to play with them but each time would try to hit or throw, although there were some time at the end that they were fine and I just had to shadow him. They also sat down for lunch and he picked up his friends drink and poured it into their bowl of dinner. Again first time he's done that, each time it gets dealt with. Normally he's absolutely fine with them.

I did raise other smaller things with pediatrician that I noticed such as he hates the hairdressers - the feeling of water spray on his head, cut hair on his skin, sun cream or any cream etc, it's impossible to get his hair cut.
He's incredibly fussy with food, he has medication for constipation and we had issues with withholding which seems to have improved. He's very sensitive. Often around other kids he will copy what they do or repeat what they say (whatever the language it is). But equally we attend music classes, gym class, rugby class and he's like all the other kids. I can take him swimming or do a completely new activity with him and he's fine. In the park he plays with other kids, shares toys - I can see he can get fractious if someone picks up his toy but often we manage it, he gives them one he doesn't mind them playing with. He's obsessed with vehicles, road signs, marbles and tractors and will watch videos of real tractor shows on repeat. He does line up cars and other more random objects. Loves singing and dancing. Generally he's very affectionate and loving and wants lots of cuddles.

But often in the back of my mind I think we've adapted and found ways to manage so it's much easier to get him to do stuff (get dressed, leave the house, have a bath) if I set a timer. I know what might trigger a melt down so I can try to avoid it, minimise it.

We are away for half term now so will see how the break goes whilst we wait to see the psychologist.

@Neurodiversitydoctor absolutely I think you've hit the nail on the head I do think he has an anxiety attachment towards me and always has but it's ramped up lately. Especially since I went away, he doesn't leave my side. If I go out to the shops he might wait at the door for me. He always wants me to do everything with him, not my DH. I don't really know how to manage it or what to do to minimise his anxiety.

I'm not working and have been a SAHM since he was born but I have just retrained into something new that I was hoping to pursue a career in, but obviously now it's difficult if he's not settled in childcare

@Neurodiversitydoctor hes 3 years 4 months

Yes @InattentiveADHD this is what I'm sensing. In recent weeks he's explicitly telling me he doesn't like this and lashing out in a way that is telling me he really doesn't like it.
I don't think it's the right environment for him. Its so different to nursery. The expectations are so much higher. They are free to choose the activities they play with but can't play with them the way he may want to.
He has alot of energy and is happiest running around, moving, singing, dancing, being noisy sometimes. And this environment is quiet, calm, no running inside etc. Interestingly they say outside they do a 1 hour break - they have a huge garden and he loves that, there are no issues with his play outside.

But often in the back of my mind I think we've adapted and found ways to manage so it's much easier to get him to do stuff (get dressed, leave the house, have a bath) if I set a timer. I know what might trigger a melt down so I can try to avoid it, minimise it.

This stands out. You’ve found workarounds to stop DC reacting to things and use these; nursery do not. Having put in multiple workarounds (sometimes parents don’t even realise they are doing so), is quite common with additional needs.

Everything you describe about your son’s behaviour at home in your more recent posts is very suggestive of ASD. Do you have ND in your immediate/wider family? On your side of DH side?

When DS1 was diagnosed ASD/ADHD, the childhood anxiety questionnaire made me cry: it described exactly how I felt at school/home when I was younger, and I realised that I too was AuDHD. I had no inkling before this, but there were obvious signs.

My god. I could have written this about my eldest, 17/18 years ago.

It wasn’t him. It was the Montessori school.

That method does not suit all children.

He’s remembered over the years how miserable he was there. He used to do awful things to try and get sent home.