To ask why women are expected to do everything?

[HolyGuacamole28]

I read a depressing article in the Economist today ‘How Motherhood affects careers’ and it stated how more and more women are not progressing as they should after having children. And SAHP is on the rise as more people opt out of a system doomed to failure. I just don’t understand how mothers are physically supposed to work full time in a career/senior role (I do), manage a household (I have a 4 year old, 2 year old and a husband, also FT) that includes washing, cleaning, cooking etc and do activities with the kids, keep fit and see friends. Is this what society expects? Who is supposed to do the household role if both adults work full time? And why do we need two incomes just to survive? (COL is so painful re mortgages, childcare, energy, food). Rant over, just can’t see how society has evolved, it’s just put more on our shoulders. I’m personally at breaking point.

Because although they say they want equality they don’t enforce it

if there are two of you jobs are split, childcare is split, you find jobs that won’t mean childcare

my parents had little money, and my mother worked nights so my dad looked after us, she did days sleeping when we were at school, both did housework, cooking etc

they also accepted they couldn’t provide a house with a room for each of us , we had to share, we didn’t have lots of holidays, certainly not abroad, one TV for the house, and of course no tablets, mobile phones, latest cars etc

the question you should be asking is do you need every materialists thing you have, or can you do without? Do you need two cars, do you need to go on holiday abroad etc, do your kids do after school activities that cost, do they need to? then if you dont can you afford not to work which is what you appear to want

I'm unconvinced you can explore this in depth beforehand. Sure, you can improve your chances by avoiding men whose sport/hobby/work is sacrosanct to them, who can't cope with inconvenience or minor crises, or who don't cook, clean, iron or shop. You can observe their behaviour with children.

But can you find out how they respond to months of broken sleep, shit, vomit, noise and mess? Whether they've got the balls to tell work they're off home because nursery/school called with a sick child? How much patience they'll have with permanent car seats and squabbling kids?

Still worse, it's pretty hard to tell whether he subconsciously understands a 'mother' as a woman whose role includes taking care of everyone in the family, even though he treats women as intellectual equals.

But you can slow things down and spend more time getting to know the other person properly. The longer you spend with them before committing to parenting a child with them, the better. The longer you spend, the more chance you'll see how they react under stress, crises, when you (or he) is ill, etc.

I think people rush into commitments far too soon, i.e. buying a house together, getting married, having children, etc., often before they've had any experience of "tough" times for various reasons, so never see the other person under stress etc.

Anyone can be a perfect partner whilst on a few dates - it's easy to fake it, like it's easy to fake being thoughtful and romantic, etc., but only time will show the "true" person.

I remember the fiance of someone I worked with. We'd all gone on one lunchtime for "works" drinks and this girl's fiance tagged along. All sweetness and light, until one of our colleagues accidentally picked up his drink and took a slurp - he went ballistic and was pretty close to punching him - all for something accidental - he wasn't even drunk! It was very embarrassing, but once he'd calmed down, he was all apologetic etc. It was a massive red flag to me (and others), but the girl in question just shrugged it off "because he apologised". A few years later, a couple of years after they married, he beat her up really badly leaving her in hospital with numerous bruises and needed many stitches!

"Marry in haste, repent at leisure!"

Of course, you can't test all the practical stuff like how they cope with sleepless nights etc. But you can explore a lot about morals, beliefs and values etc. I would be really questioning my relationship if such fundamental things changed suddenly when kids came along, and if I couldn't make him see how he had abandoned his values and morals, then that would be the end of the marriage for me.

Don't people talk about this stuff before marriage? And if they do, don't they call their partners out if it is subsequently proven that it was all bullshit that they didn't really mean?

I wouldn't know who my DH was any more if he suddenly did an about turn on something as fundamental as this.

Yeah, I was with DH for 5 years before we got married and we were together for 10 before we had dc. I'd have been astonished if he suddenly had a personality transplant after all that time.

Yeah, @user1497207191, but you went straight from peace to war there. That man was a violent abuser and you were right, you saw the red flag while your friend desperately needed a better 'shark cage'.

This thread wasn't really about abusers, though - more the kind of guy who quietly checks out of the difficult parts, and what women can do about it. These men - millions of them - do abuse their partners' sense of duty and, in a way, their children's vulnerability: the kids can't leave, somebody has to look after them, and that somebody is not him.

As to what women can do about them? I say kick them out. Sometimes it'll be enough to wake them up. If it doesn't, the woman loses a giant child that took her services for granted.

i see that misandry is still alive and kicking. Men can do better, it's misandry to suggest that that can't.

I'm fairly sure that's the first time I've ever liked a post using the word 'misandry' 😂

DSis's ex-H took at least five years to go from hoovering etc to letting DSis clear up his used coke cans whilst he gamed or watched TV. They can keep the facade up for quite a while.

i'd say that using your wife as a domestic skivvy is part of the abuse spectrum. Pat Craven says (pdf link) that abusers who've been jailed for spousal battery describe "wife" as being an acronym for "washing, ironing, fucking, etc". To treat another person like a skivvy, you have to feel an entitlement to that person. To hit them, you have to feel an entitlement to that person. The key difference is the level of entitlement.

@Notfeelingitwasworthit I think you misread my post. I would be PAYING TAXES OF £250,000. My earnings are higher.

The problem is that after paying such a huge amount in tax I am hand to mouth after paying for 3 sets of school fees, a full time nanny and a housekeeper. It’s also not forever. My elder two children are 12 and 10, so it’s 5-7 years of help at the most. Also, the cost calculation by the council is based on their p&l not the overall picture. I’d be depressed and dejected if I didn’t work. I’d not feel like my life was worth living as I’d be ‘living for my children’ by force, not choice. My financial reserves would be depleted and the council would be paying for me in retirement.

The expectation that I would not work is absurd and it felt very sexist. They never seem to tell the men to stop working. Honestly I’d be better off giving my children up but again the system plays on that. It’s no wonder men behave the way they do. Even the genderless government doesn’t value women.

Anyway, I solved the problem by not returning home. I do hold resentment against the Uk for this. They can sit there and pay for everyone else who doesn’t work hard, trying to better themselves but exclude children of working parents with what they consider to be an invisible disability.

🤣I'm not sure you know what "hand to mouth" means.

Gosh. It is very difficult when paying three sets of private school fees, a nanny and a housekeeper doesn't leave much.

I can relate, as I am sure we all can with how difficult that is.

School fees are £90k a year, a nanny is £60k a year. After spending £150k from after tax income because the system doesn’t support my children’s needs, that would leave me with about £1500 a month to live on with 3 children in commuting distance to London.

I consider that hand to mouth because my costs are a lot higher. On a good day my children can take the bus. On an average to bad day they need to be driven to get there on time. My eldest was assaulted at school and still has PTSD from the experience.

Roll your eyes all you want but this is why I didn’t return to the UK. In the U.S. as shitty as it is, I get some help through the tax code as they have ‘head of household’ as a tax
status for single parents. I make about 50% more and my home is almost paid off. I don’t have a fancy life but I’m able to shop in the supermarket without worrying if I have enough to pay for the heating or keeping the lights on. None of this is possible on my own in the UK because I’m taxed as a single person and I don’t have a housewife taking care of everything.

The person who took the role is a man who has a wife taking care of the home. Leadership have asked why there are so few women in the pipeline….hmmm I’m a classic example of exactly why you don’t see women in leadership roles in the private sector.

I struggled with work and dc when they were younger so I cut back to part time hours and then later retrained.
Now my dc are all at secondary school and I'm
Trying to find full time work in a good position (I'm good at what I do) and people just don't seem to want to employ older women.
We can't win.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/410364763121879/?ref=share

One thing you did forget was affordable childcare only became real after middle class women decided they would quite like to go work .Of course there is modern health and safety , you would think I didn't know so you have to explain it to me I'm not daft.
Women like my gran who had seven children , who did a midnight flit because her husband was a violent sod . She had to work and juggle children because society had no care for women such as her there was no nanny

.There was certainly no feminists on her side . What I will tell you though middle class feminist gathered in their thousands for their right to vote . While also forgetting working class men didn't even have the right to vote .I'm not bitter lol feminists back then had absolutely no care for working class women .And don't get be started on the feminists who took it upon themselves to hand out white feathers to men who were deemed unfit to fight .Maybe I 'm a bit bitter feminism was so class based , also there are also accusations today modern feminism doesn't take on the fight of rights of women of colour .
Also another thing that really annoyed me , where were the feminists when the government introduced the rape clause on women on benefits who had more than two children ? Those poor women , still being fucked over by the system .

Of course there is modern health and safety , you would think I didn't know so you have to explain it to me I'm not daft.

I assume no prior knowledge when writing. Otherwise I get "what's a...?" replies. I'm not a mind reader, I can't know what you do and don't know and it's unreasonable for you to expect me to.

modern feminism doesn't take on the fight of rights of women of colour

So the national scandal and Women's Hour discussions that happened when the research was published about how Black women are five times more likely to die than their white counterparts didn't happen? M'kay. The national outcry about the Windrush scandal didn't happen? Yeah, right.

the feminists when the government introduced the rape clause on women on benefits who had more than two children

Shouting loudly. You clearly didn't see it past the enormous chip on your shoulder.

And don't get be started on the feminists who took it upon themselves to hand out white feathers to men who were deemed unfit to fight

There was a war on that we had to win and disability wasn't understood the way it is now. Those men were wrongly perceived as abled by everyone at that time. I refuse to judge a woman whose sons and husband are away fighting for resenting a man who looks to her like he should be too.

There is a particular kind of supposedly "intersectional feminist" who likes to shout about how a certain type of woman isn't doing enough and rakes up the actions of women long-dead whilst staying strangely silent about the men who do nothing. It looks like I just found one.

I would have to say this is a really rare occurrence because many of the females in my family from grans to my mother and aunts who worked in mills never had work childcare . The idea of work childcare was briefly used in 90s, came from the States but as far as I can tell employers really didn't think it was on them to spend money childcare .

Ask BMN how they feel about modern feminism .

Ask FWR about what is currently called feminism and it won't get a warm review there either.

I turn to Lipstick Alley when I want to see what Black women are prioritising.

Many men are useless, mainly down to their mothers who did everything for them. My mother was company Director so me and my brother were pretty adept (from teenage years) at looking after ourselves. Also went to a progressive school where all boys were taught how to cook, sew and iron. Followed by the Services, again we had to do all out own washing, and mending. Now retired I do all the 'blue' jobs plus cooking and ironing.

Unless someone is raised by a single mum, a child is raised by both parents so why blame just the mother?

At some point, men also need to be held accountable if they are lazy. They are adults and can't blame mummy forever.

@mynameisbiggles you are the fool then if you are married and you are doing all the jobs. Your husbands mother is irrelevant you picked this person, this is for you to speak with your own husband and share household chores. His mother would be coming from a different era completely! Moreover its your marriage not your mother inlaws.