To wonder about Secure Units and Teenagers?

[dottypotter]

Re Brianna Gheys killers being in a secure unit until they are 18 and James Bulgers killers etc.

What happens to them in there?
They have a school attached to them do they carry on their lessons.
How big are the classes?
What else do they do if anyone knows?
Do they get taken out?
Do they get anything bought for them on their birthdays?
What if they need a dentist or doctor?
Do they visit or do they get taken to them?
What sort of things do they do on weekends?
Do they have to see visitors?
Sorry for all the questions?
You very rarely hear about them but you hear plenty about adult prisons?
Is it really a big punishment?
I guess the focus is more on rehabilitation?

if children are dangerous to the public, they need to be locked up. That does not mean it is their fault, in fact you could argue that for most dangerous children, it is either something inborn, or something that has come about due to life experiences, and neither are their fault

So, no, these places are not for punishment - that is not the point of them

@dottypotter is this the first time that you're realising that this stuff costs us all huge amounts of money? Same with all prisoners, young or old.
I remember a prison officer coming to talk to the teens where I worked- they were the disadvantaged type. He gave a figure if how much per head per meal they got, then compared it to McDonald's. Trying to put them off.
It was way more than I could spend on me and my kids.

I used to work in one and this is a good account.

Small classes, much 1-1 support.

100% that prison should be about rehabilitation IMO. So my previous comment isn't that what they spend on anyone in the justice system is too much... it's that people not in the justice sure should not struggle so much financially that they can't afford to feed their kids!

This is true - back in the 90s my psychiatrist wanted me admitted to a secure unit (I was school refusing, not eating and generally very overwhelmed). My parents had to fight against it to keep me at home

I think the confusion is because we have ‘secure hospitals’ for mental health/forensic mental health patients. I’ve worked in these and you have: low secure hospital: young people have severe and enduring mental health disorders and are usually a risk to themselves and to a lesser degree, others. Medium secure hospital: often these young people have committed serious crimes but have been found not guilty due to the crime being a result of their mental health problem, e.g. murder committed while in psychosis. The young people do not have a sentence but will be kept in hospital until not deemed a risk to others and their mental health disorder is well managed.

Op ....it Might shock you to know they have Xbox etc....even at 18 when they go to YOI

Men in prison can have an Xbox too

No dosent shock me.
Do they get presents etc on their birthday and parties?

Do you think they shouldn’t?

Maybe you should volunteer and you can see for yourself how secure units are run, they are always looking for extra help

I can't believe small class sizes are being seen as a benefit of being in prison.

Never mind that you killed someone, you might pass your maths at this rate. Jesus.

Do they get presents etc on their birthday and parties?

Yes and they get a party and cake and they can choose to either go bowling or to the local climbing centre or swimming pool and can invite up to 6 friends. They can choose a gift worth up to £500 and on their actual birthday are allowed free rein of the institution and get an 'It's my birthday' badge and party poppers and everything. All at tax payers expense.

I think that as a society, whilst recognising that on the whole many, if not most of the people in youth prisons, or in prisons in general will remain in the system we continue to educate and attempt to rehabilitate in the hope that if even a small number of people turn their lives around it is worth it. Even more so when it comes to child offenders.
The chance for a single child to be able to live a free and good life in the future means we should attempt education and rehabilitation for the majority, because we won't know who that one child will be.

It's a little similar to innocent until proven guilty in my opinion and the reason why we don't have the death penalty. Punishing the innocent is worse than failing to punish the guilty. So attempting to rehabilitate the majority is worth it if the alternative is not giving the minority a chance.

I believe in talking openly about things so I don't mind you raising the question of education and schools in general. It's better however to be clear what you are saying though. I interpret your OP as saying that you feel the money would be better spent on the rest of the children in the school system.
I understand why people might think this but I believe that education, and by this I mean not only academic education but how to live/ care for ourselves and be cared for, the best we can, and should be a right for everyone. In the same way SEN education is as valid as mainstream education. If we start deciding to morally distinguish between who has more right to an education we risk losing our way as a society, even though in practice I acknowledge that this does already happen to some extent.

Do you think some children shouldn't know what it feels to be loved and cared for in the most basic of ways?
Who does that benefit?

If people knew the histories of the young people that find themselves in secure services, and spent time with them then I think those that begrudge them an education and meaningful activity would change their minds.
Yes, they may have committed horrible crimes, but it is rare to meet someone in this situation who has not had a great deal of attachment trauma/many adverse childhood experiences to live with. A therapeutic environment is what they need if we as a society want them to have any chance of rehabilitation.

Agree with this

Do they separate the boys and the girls as asked by someone else?

You might be right, we're going back 20 years so I might be confused. Was definitely an adult unit with some very scary characters.

Secure units which are not hospitals would not take someone who is sectioned due to medical need, they're not able to, dont have capacity to provide medical care/assessment/treatment

They may well have been in an adult unit for their MH, but it wouldnt be a secure unit that the OP is talking about

Yes. When you read the background histories of many young people who end up in this units, it would be more of a surprise if they didn’t commit a crime.😐

@dottypotter

I'm going to tell you a story.
I'm an adoptive mum. I fought a LA for nearly 4 years to be allowed to foster a sibling. This kid has been in care since primary age, now in GCSE years. They wouldn't let me. This kid has been kicked around the residential home system for years, not surprisingly was picked up by a gang, moved to a secure residential home for their own safety. Moved three times in the last year, that would be 3 different cities. So that's GCSEs stuffed up then.
Not a hardened criminal but someone severely let down by the system and probably heading down a criminal path.

We should care more about our young people

I can only talk from my experience of secure forensic hospitals. Everyone had their own en suite bedroom, there was a boys corridor and a girls corridor and a couple of swing bedrooms that could be either. They are not allowed in each others bedrooms and observation levels are high, some children are on 24 hour 1:1 or 5 minute observations. This means there are loads of staff around. Classrooms, therapy rooms and social areas were for everyone.