To think in London, your choice of partner matters more than a career?

[zippythetoad]

I work in London, came from a working class family in north, state comp, went to Cambridge, blah blah.

Work in a well paid job in financial services. You’d think my kind of salary would afford a nice house etc. You’d be wrong.

Looking around at people in the office, some of the same background as me, the only people who have actual houses or are starting families are those who have married someone with generational wealth.

It doesn’t matter how hard you work, you will never catch up to someone who has bern given a £1-2mil contribution to buying a house through inheritance or family. This all boils down to whether your partner comes from a family who bought London property in the 80s or 90s.

My best friend lives in a £1.3 million apartment with a very difficult husband and their two children.

Many friends have told her it would be so much better for all concerned if they divorced, but she can't bear the idea of having to sell up and giving him half. It's in her sole name too, but that doesn't make any difference.

Similar stuff has happened where I live too. It’s not nice and I don’t like it any more than you do (who would?) but I guess I have a slightly different mindset. Knife crime is unfortunately all over London, as are drugs, and I just feel sorry for the teenagers getting involved in that life because of multiple factors that basically amount to a failing system and lack of funding for the right support.

There’s a hostel round the corner from me housing disadvantaged men who spend most of their day drinking on the high street as I assume they can’t drink in the hostel. They’re actually friendly and harmless and as I walk past them every day with my dog we greet each other and sometimes stop for a chat. What I like about where I live is it has a brilliant sense of community, people do stop and chat in the street and in the park, and that community extends to everyone, even the most disadvantaged, there’s not an “us and them, they must be got rid of” vibe.

Ideally this stuff wouldn’t be happening but I see it as one of the flip sides of living in a city, and a system failure that’s let these people down. One thing I like about London is how people from all walks of life live side by side. So I don’t see it as a personal failure that I live in an area like this, I’m not religious but my attitude is definitely “there for the grace of god go I” as I have my own flat and the security that brings when many people around me don’t. I don’t feel it gives me a bad lifestyle, I’ve done as much as I can aesthetically to make my tiny flat cosy and homely and a relatively small mortgage means I’ve got “fun money” for holidays, socialising, the gym etc. Easy and quick access to central London and the benefits that brings. And while I’m pro improving areas and facilities for the genuine benefit of the residents, gentrification/unaffordable housing just serves to keep the poor poorer, it’s a kind of class cleansing.

The dog shit problem is gross though, I’ll give you that. I assume there was a reason you chose your house and area originally though, rather than a smaller property in a nicer area? I imagine you didn’t go to view it and think “this house is shit, the area’s shit, I’ll take it!”

@JumpinJellyfish I guess I think I’m in touch but at 40 am some 15/16 years ahead of the NQs. I see their salaries and think it must be possible… I know they are not super super comfortable (I’m thinking my lovely house but in zone 1/2 plus a skiing holiday, and Caribbean and private schools…) but not everything happens at once, does it? They earn well in their 20s and I think can save a 10% deposit. When kids are tiny there’s childcare, and then school fees come later, and kids don’t care about expensive holidays, and most partners I know choose to live out of London (and they couldn’t have their big house in London)… but our career choice does make what most people think is a comfortable life possible… I think!

@TedMullins that's really encouraging about South East London:

www.fishneedwater.com/blog/7-reasons-to-move-to-south-east-london

Yes this
ok it was some ago now but I/we managed to do ok in the london housing market because of bonuses from DH working in finance. No family help

How old(young) are you and what is your role in financial services?

You might be in the wrong firm or in the wrong role to earn enough to buy a property, and in either case you might be able to change that.

Some people who start out with no assets end up doing well economically by earning well.

It is not fair that some people get generational wealth handed to them, but life is unfair. The more interesting questions are: what do you want? What can you do about it? And what price are you willing to pay in terms of having your personal life be constrained by the need to be available at work?

But back to the OP’s question… no, your life chances are far more down to your own personal career success not your partner’s wealth. Honestly, I would never want to be reliant on a husband’s wealth, inherited or earned. I think (no criticism of OP) women need to focus on what they personally would need to earn to have the lifestyle they want, and choose careers that enable that…. of course not possible for everyone, but for many bright women, totally possible. Even if relying on inherited wealth, much healthier to rely on your own rather than a partner’s (and it’s not news that people who inherit wealth are wealthier than the rest of us!). Now at 40, sadly many friends’ marriages are breaking down and inherited wealth is pretty well protected, often, in a divorce….

@Heather37231 end of 2022

YANBU. It's a class thing, you know, the non-existent fact of life nobody mentions 🙄

However, I'd never in a million years recommend seeking a partner for money/status, and will always promote investing in your own success! You're the only person you can truly depend on - that goes double for us grammar-school upstarts.

So. How to get yourself on this treacherous ladder known as property ownership? I'm pretty sure your salary will cover a mortgage on a decent London flat, so the barrier must be the deposit.

You could buy a place outside London, rent it out.
You can look into shared ownership schemes.
You might consider buying with a friend who's got the deposit.
You could downgrade your lifestyle and save like Scrooge.

Or you could simply not bother, and continue enjoying life until your income's increased enough to save more, or you get a humungous bonus, or bridging loans become available.

All is not lost 🙂

I had the exact same experience! We did buy a flat, back in 2002 when things were more affordable, but I couldn’t understand how we could only just manage a two bedroom flat in Brixton as a couple, but my work colleague on the exact same salary (NHS, single payscale) was buying a flat in Hampstead Village by herself. Then one of my other colleagues pointed out that Colleague 1’s parents owned half of Singapore. I hadn’t known 🤷‍♀️

YANBU. It's a class thing, you know, the non-existent fact of life nobody mentions

True, Im surprised people didn’t notice it earlier though. I remember becoming aware of it at uni & then in my first job where the majority were privately educated.

Going back to the partner/husband point, in my earlier post I said ‘Choose carefully’.

That doesn’t necessarily have to mean choosing someone high-earning in the City (although it certainly helps when buying London property), but choosing someone with a strong work ethic who brings their own skills, talents or passions to the relationship. Perhaps he is good at DIY, or a regular saver, studying after work or a volunteer for a particular cause, it is all a good sign. It means that you will be able to work together to build a life.

Look at what they do at the weekend. A man in his early twenties who lolls around in bed all Saturday morning, moves on to the sofa and then eventually finds his way to the pub will not suddenly undergo a personality transformation and become a model husband in his thirties. You will always be dragging this man behind you. Someone who has a bit of a lie-in but who then gets up and gets on with his chores and errands is a much better bet.

Having said all that, some women are quite strategic about whom they marry - they deliberately put themselves in particular environments in order to meet men of a certain type and background - then hope to attract someone in that pool.

But London is literally laid out like a social map. If you hang out in Islington you will probably meet a different type of single man to whom you would meet in Fulham, or Primrose Hill, or Epping, or Forest Hill.
You buys your travelcard, you takes your choice!

You’re right. I’m 47 single parent and still haven’t bought in the south east. I’ve got a despot finally but I don’t want to spend almost half my salary on a crappy flat. So I’m heading back north in a couple of years when youngest goes to Uni. Only choice really, I’ll have much more spare money and can come to london as a tourist. I’ll be sad to leave london but it’s impossible for someone like me to stay

Right, so you can afford a property but you think flats are crap. That’s not a case of not being able to afford anything, that’s a case of snobbery, exactly as I said earlier. ‘I can’t afford the property I want in an ideal world’ does not = ‘I can’t afford anything and it’s impossible’, you’re making a choice.

I’m happy with living in a flat but I don’t want to buy one that needs loads of work and costs half my salary. I’d rather buy a house up north

Absolutely echo this point, as well as GSOH/similar values,good earning potential I have to add good mental health, happy stable family background(less chance of divorce & having to split assets)

I became painful aware of it at Uni - all the contacts to get experience or feet in door then there's money to help you get on housing market.

We had neither and in our 30 despite education getting us better paid jobs - we were away from family but in similar working-class areas just behind as we were later buying. We save hard and got on - took years to get kitted out.

When we moved on - it was to a cheap area - a city MN always says is a dump - and since moving here city center gone downhill as has secondary. Had recent causes to look all the schools are full and over scribed and in 8 years on this estate house price have gone up £100,000 - we wouldn't be able to afford to buy here now. It's because people in nearby cities have been priced out - mainly families I think - and ended up here.

Mind you since my teenage years I've had view London was place to do a few years get experience then move to an actual affordable part of the UK to live in - literally everyone I graduated with who ended up there did this - sometimes moving abroad but long term I can't thing of anyone who stayed.

40

@TedMullins nobody's ever said they couldn't afford property. Just not to the standard that they like. Personally I think a 3 bed terrace in a safe area within a reliable commute to work (an hour) isn't too much to ask. A mansion in zone 1, or one of those Victorian terraces definitely. But not a pretty ordinary place. OP may be a bit deluded with the million pound deposit but even 20K as help would made a difference.

Ultimately all OP is pointing out is that those who marry into wealth in London have a much easier time. Of course it's true everywhere but in places like Manchester it's still possible to buy a flat/2 bed, then upgrade to a family home in a safe area with good schools. You owning a tiny flat in a grubby area that you can never afford to move out of doesn't contradict this point.

FWIW I come from a country with lots of flats, I do wonder why the British are obsessed with gardens when the weather is crap most of the time. I love flats. But I wouldn't buy one as a family residence in this country. Not only are most (except for luxury flats) not designed for family living the legislation is very weak compared to my home country regarding service charges, repairs, communal maintenance etc.

Sure, of course it makes a difference and I don’t dispute that. And I agree on the leasehold system for flats, it is a joke - often the new build flats are worse for extortionate service charges though than older conversions. Some flats are lovely though - I think when people hear ‘flat’ they think of a local authority style block with concrete stairways that stink of piss, rather than a conversation in a large Victorian house with high ceilings and original features. And there’s everything in between as well, art deco blocks, 70s/80s builds that are uglier but tend to be large and sturdy, luxury apartment buildings, maisonettes with a private garden etc. There’s a huge variation among flats in London and while some wouldn’t be suitable for families many others are.

I also agree people are saying “I can’t afford to buy what I want/the size of house I want/in the area I want”, and that’s fine if that’s how they phrase it but many people DO equate “only” being able to afford a flat to not being able to afford anything at all. People on this thread claim they can’t afford anything then in subsequent posts reveal they actually own a property, they just don’t like it very much.

That’s what I have an issue with, because that’s also the narrative perpetuated in the media and it makes people like me who would be happy with a small flat think we don’t stand a chance. It was only when I did my own research, looked on rightmove and spoke to mortgage brokers that I realised it was possible for me to buy on a small (for London) salary, 10% deposit and no help. If I’d have just believed everything I heard and read about people on 250k+ not being able to afford ANYTHING I might have given up before I started. I just wish people would be more honest about not being able to afford their ideal property and not being willing to compromise.

@TedMullins well, that's the media for you. People would have to be a bit thick to rely on that, and strangers on the internet, without doing their own research.
IMO Londoners are put off because they want what their parents had. But also, know people IRL who bought flats with a view to upgrading, and then are stuck unable to build equity. Not even to a nicer, bigger flat. People from outside London are put off because they can't get the same for their money, especially as they're excited to secure a 'high paying job' like the OP only to discover that the dream's very different from the reality.

BTW you say that there are a lot of flat types, everyone knows that, it's also why the good ones are relatively more expensive. If everyone 'hated' flats then these would be the same price.

Yes it would be short sighted to rely only on the media and strangers on the internet but it wasn’t only that! When I started looking into it people IRL expressed doubt I could buy as well, because of these narratives.

I agree your expectations and childhood have an impact. I didn’t grow up in London, my parents lived there but moved out before I was born as they couldn’t afford it even in the 70s. We had a small terrace in a boring town and I used to tell them I wish they’d stayed in London! We weren’t middle class and the archetypal 4-bed detached was just never on my radar. I out-earned my parents by the time I was making 30k. My expectations are undoubtedly different from someone with a privileged upbringing but for me the benefits of living in London far outweigh the fact I can only afford a one bed flat in zone 4. I never expected to be able to afford anything, let alone a large house, so unlike others I’m not looking at my parents and thinking I’m doing worse than them. In most ways I’m doing better.

Makes sense.
Also OP's background - I wouldn't say she was underprivileged solely from the information given. Less privileged compared to the loaded people, but aren't most of us?
Around here of our 'WC by birth acquaintances' didn't grow up up in a 4 bed detached, but a nice, relatively spacious well-designed council house. Some of their parents even made a nice profit from selling it and buying somewhere nice with the remainder + higher salaries.
A small flat would definitely be a downgrade for them. Even if it was in 'London'.

No we don’t know much about OP’s background from what she said. I guess I also don’t equate property size directly with quality of life (within reason, I’m not advocating for entire families to live in one-room bedsits). My flat might be small but I’ve decorated it to my taste, it meets my needs, is 5 mins from a train station, I like my neighbours and surrounding community, I have good career opportunities and friends in London and can easily reach all the things the city has to offer, there’s a direct train to a major airport from my local station which is great as I love to travel and I can afford to do so as my mortgage is relatively small (as are utility bills because there’s not much flat to heat).

If I lived in the town I grew up in, for example, I might have a house instead of a flat with more space and a private rather than communal garden, but I don’t have any friends still living there, I’d probably have to get the train to London frequently at great cost for work and socialising, my bills would cost more, there’s very little to do there and I’d be bored. So overall I feel like I have a better quality of life in London than I would somewhere I could afford a bigger house when you take all other factors into account. Of course this won’t be true for everyone but I think what constitutes a good lifestyle is about more than just the kind of property/area you live in.