To think you don't quite realise how badly the NHS is suffering until you witness it first hand

[DaisyCat33]

My parents are sitting in A&E today. They've just hit 12 hours. My dad was sent there by his GP for severe neck pain this morning. He's had morphine and an MRI scan, but they're now endlessly waiting to see a Dr about results. He hasn't even got a bed to lay on, despite debilitating neck pain. Many people are standing or sitting on the floor.

The couple sitting next to them have been there since 3am, for difficultly breathing.

I'm shocked. Honestly I knew the NHS had it's issues, but this bad?! It's frightening. I also had an email the other day saying my NHS dentist is closing, and it's basically a "well sorry no dentist for you any more, bye bye"

I don't really know the point of this thread really, I just feel shocked and upset that this is how it is. And I think a lot of people don't even realise? My parents definitely didn't until today. They are losing the will to live sat in that hospital.

Does anyone else just feel utterly helpless and anxious about this?

I had 9 horrible hours in our local A&E a couple of weeks ago... it was awful and terrifying - I had chest pain and it took 4 hours to even see the triage nurse.. my gp had sent me there too..

What the boomer generation paid in ( minimal NI for instance) is nothing like what they are now taking it out. The people that designed this system back then knew it was not sustainable for future generations, as we can see now, but continued anyway for their other own benefit knowing the young would suffer - and living standards have since slammed in reverse.

Secondly you are missing the elephant in the room. Back in your day the population stood at 56 million. We are now at 70 million plus. A staggering 14 million extra patients to care for in such a short time and people wonder why there aren’t enough hospital beds 🤷🏼‍♀️

I feel so sad that so many have had such awful experiences. I work in healthcare and it’s changed so much in the 15 years I’ve worked there.

A&E is dire because it’s overwhelmed with the numbers of people trying to use it. I get that people are frustrated that they can’t get a GP appointment so A&E sometimes seems their solution which impacts further on numbers attending and wait times.
the NHS is stretched beyond recognition and I don’t see a way forward.
DH had to have some orthopedic surgery recently and it was through a private hospital (NHS funded) another friend had a hernia repair last year also through the same private hospital (also NHS funded) which was great but makes you wonder just how much extra this is costing because of outsourcing

I think if you are able to wait 12 hours, there’s really not too much wrong with you. Which is why they triage, they can quickly work out the people who can wait, and those who are in a more life threatening condition. Same with the beds!

My recent experience was exactly that.

During recent doctor strikes my relative was seen extremely quickly because they recognised the signs of something serious. If they had not been there at that moment, they would have died.

If you’d seen what I’d seen of the acute part of A&E and resus, you’d realise the NHS is working well (well not well, but they’re doing their absolute best with what they’ve got). It’s the users who are the problem. You’d also understand that 12 hours without a bed for someone with neck pain is really not a big deal.

Yes, I completely agree. The NHS wasn't designed to cope with what it copes with these days. I qualified as a nurse in 2005, honeslty, I'm fed up and exhausted. Nurses are leaving in droves. Just today, another experienced, kind, caring, and competent nurse has handed her notice in. In my nearly 20-year career, I have never known things to be so bad. I actually fear for mine and my children's futures should we ever get ill. I have a hospital appointment tomorrow, I have been waiting for this appointment since June 2022. I guess it's not cancer as I'm still here, but if it was, I would be beyond hope, and that's what scares me.

@Newchapterbeckons I don't ever remember paying minimal NI. By 1986 I was paying tax at 60%. We may be late boomers but we have put in far more than we have ever taken out.

We have used private healthcare to a significant extent, our DC were educated privately, they do not have student loans - we paid.

The only benefit we have ever received was child benefit (universal). The NHS refused to grommet my dc, it refuses to pay for my optimal osteoporosis drugs.

DH and Instill work full-time, still pay top rate tax.

How very dare you.

It’s not fair on the staff, and it’s not fair on the patients. It’s not fair for any of us to live in fear of being seriously ill.

We deserve a solution.

My brother in China was cared for by his wife and MIL whilst in hospital. It's normal practice there too.

The “boomer generation” paid up to 35% basic rate tax during the 1970s which far out-ways the NI contributions today. But then that was a famous Labour government that not only introduced the huge tax rates but also the 3 day week. At least the NHS was adequately funded back then as a result.
I really struggle to understand the staunch socialists who criticise but are probably unwilling to sacrifice a third of their income in order to fund a decent health service. Although I am not a Labour supporter, if they are willing to raise taxation then I will happily vote for them as long as they ringfence health funding and are willing to radically change the NHS.

"Why should someone else pay for your risky sport?"

Partly because doctors tell us to be physically active!

Blaming people is just not the route to go down and as I've asked, where does it stop.
You stayed up too late watching TV so you're tired the next day and you walk into the cupboard. Self-inflicted and you need to be penalised by having to pay for your treatment?

"I think if you are able to wait 12 hours, there’s really not too much wrong with you."

In 2012 my dad waited some 12 hours in A and E. His appendix had burst. He finally got operated on and had issues (air related I believe) got a week or two after.

His GP had sent him up the previous day and he wasn't admitted. I don't think anyone actually spoke to him.

And have the Conservatives restored fiscal control of the country?

14 years, 5 Prime Ministers, 8 Chancellors later we are in a worse state than we've ever been.

NHS waiting lists longer than ever.
No new houses being built.
State pension payments ranking 16th in Europe.
No NHS dentists.
Schools falling down.
Roads in a parlous state.

Some interesting data here documenting the fact that national debt has risen consistently over the last 20 odd years under both Labour and Conservatives. https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

Most people don't have amnesia and remember that the financial crisis at the end of the Labour government was the result of a the 2008 worldwide financial crisis.

There are many stories in this thread of people waiting 12 hours and more, whether they were able to or not. They didn't die within that time frame but within 3 days needed a limb amputation that might otherwise have been unnecessary etc.

I would consider that as having something very wrong although you might count the fact they survived beyond 12 hours as proof that "there’s really not too much wrong" with them.

Neighbour with a stroke waited 36 hours. His wife propping him up against a wall in a chair. It was harrowing she said, she's ex military so has seen a lot

You can add hospitals falling down also Dapbag.

And the Conservative party have been at the helm of this country longer than they have been out of power.

You can be active in a non risky sport 🙄

There isn't enough money in the country's pot any more.

There are too many of us.

It costs about £3000 per person a year for the NHS. So each family of 4, that's £12,000. 2 children in school? 1 child is £8000. So now we are at a £28k cost for that family of 4. That's just for NHS and schooling.. nothing else at all. No child benefit, no tax credits, no police, no fire service etc etc etc.

Very few people contribute enough to cover just their own costs. More people in this country take more than they give. A far higher percentage than ever before.

It doesn't add up, and it's getting worse.

One day the whole thing is just going to go 'pop'.

"You can be active in a non risky sport 🙄"

Every sport has some risk, but that's not the point. The NHS is for everyone.

So the big question is do you think Labour can fix it??
Because every single issue on that list is due to population explosion. No one ever wants to talk about absorbing an extra 14 million people and the impact thst has had on all of us. Labour have an open door policy so the situation is about to deteriorate further.

Had Labour not overspent we would have been in a much stronger position to deal with the financial crisis!

Everyone saying there's not enough money for the NHS should remember that the NHS was started in 1948 when Britain was on the absolute bones of its arse after six years of world war.

The desperate state of the NHS and all our public services is the result of government strategy, not poverty.

I’m absolutely appalled to read some of these posts. I’m so sorry for everyone’s experiences.

i will say I’ve visited A&E probably half a dozen times in the last 3 years, twice for me, twice for one child and twice with another child. On all occasions the care was absolutely fine. I could see they were busy but I didn’t feel overlooked and we were all dealt with quite promptly.

On one occasion my son was admitted because the doctor didn’t feel confident sending him home, but it was a hunch she had and further tests confirmed there was good reason for him being admitted. Could have easily been missed and sent home by a less diligent doctor.

I know it’s bad - but I just wanted to share my positives. I’ve always been pleasantly surprised by the care and treatment expecting the worst.

This afternoon I visited and she had better cognition but was still confused eg 4 men were in her bathroom last night breaking in to rob the hospital.

Has double-sided chest, back and leg pain, can not get out of bed or walk or move herself from lying down, very full chest, continual coughing up of muck and wheezing. Tells me she is 'fearful of the future' would rather be dead, does not want to go back to the care home but has nowhere else she could go. Feels very dirty - no shower or bath but hands and face have been washed. Teeth not cleaned since she went in- Monday night. I asked if it was possible for her to have a shower at some point. Nurse said 'Oh I don't know about that- I'll ask.'
Another member of staff- who looked like a nurse came and said said 'How can I do that. There are only 2 of us washing patients. Anyway she can't stand'.
I said 'Could she go in a chair'
Staff ' I haven't got a shower chair.Where do you think I'll find one of those? I suppose she could sit on a commode but it's got a hole in the middle. I'll see what I can do tomorrow'.
I asked about her teeth and mouth being cleaned.
Staff to aunt 'Have you not got a toothbrush and toothpaste? You can do it yourself'.
Me 'But she can't get to the bathroom.'
She then got one cup of water and another empty cup and said 'Swoosh with one after you've cleaned and spit into the other.'
Me 'Her toothbrush has disappeared. It was in her washbag bag.'
Somehow it is in a corner of the room, on the floor and filthy. She gave her a little tooth rush and left. My aunt cleaned her teeth- she could hardly hold the brush.
I cleaned up after her. Threw the plastic cups away, cleaned table with sanitiser, Disposed of a bowl of phlegm filled paper tissue.

Someone arrives to take her bloodpressure. Again it is 179/99. I am told again 'That's ok'.

Suddenly a consultant arrived and told her she is well enough to leave this afternoon. She said she does not want to go. She feels awful and needs help, can't walk, has not been to the loo for a week, is confused and needs to get better.

He says 'I know you don't want to go but you are much better today and we need this bed for people who are queued up in the corridor. 'Aunt says she can not go home and does not want to return to care home. He says she does not need to be in hospital any more but must continue with antibiotics as her lungs are still showing pneumonia.

I ask about the pains - dismissed as pneumonia effects. I ask about her chest and say I am concerned by how weak she is and am worried she will not be monitored closely and cared for medically in care home. He says the best he can do is a different care home. Nurse says she has not been to the loo. He says 'I'll leave you to discuss what she would prefer and go and see about her bowels.' (As if they are in another part if the building and need retrieving.)

Aunt says she will return to the care home if she has to as she had to pay £2600 upfront on Sunday night when she was admitted for 2 weeks fees and won't get it back.

I have no idea whether they will move her tonight. When I left her room there were 6 staff in nursing type uniforms chatting in the centre of the hub,outside her room having a laugh- they had all been there at least 15 minutes.

Everyone was nice. The ward was much cleaner than the previous ward (although her bathroom was not clean at all) Still I felt no one really wants to 'care for' elderly patients. The idea she might need a shower or her teeth cleaned in 5 days was a nuisance.

I think she could, with physio and care regain her strength to go home but it is not going to happen and she knows that herself. The care home will not do it. The hospital have no facility to do it. She'll end up in permanent care and just degenerate physically, lose all of her mobility, and get another chest infection and die. Someone will wheel her from her room to the dining room and back 3 x a day. Meanwhile they will charge her £1300 a week for the privilege of sleeping in a lumpy bed, in a room with rickety old furniture and having a shower once a week.

It's horrendous.

And the huge expansion of what the NHS offers..

We spend about 10% of GDP on funding the NHS. This is about double what it was 20 years ago, and about 4 times what it was when the NHS was founded. There or thereabouts.

The problem isn’t that we’re not spending enough. We’re spending an insane (and increasingly burdensome) amount of our national wealth on this.

The problem is that healthcare is becoming insanely expensive to provide, increasingly technological, and expectations are that it is an all encompassing, no rationing service, with no barriers to access.

It will eventually have to be rationed in some significant form or made radically more efficient. More money hurts as much as helps.

I rang the GP yesterday for my daughter, grown up but poorly. At 8am I was 28 in the queue. 45 minutes later I was 15 in the queue when I was cut off. All appointments gone. Last year I had an MRI, waited five months for the results. Had another MRI in August. Results appointment scheduled for October cancelled and rebooked for June this year. I only know what the results were because my GP told me. From now on I'm going private. Not because I'm rich but because it's terrifying. I believe that the problems of the NHS are systemic and any idea we had about the NHS are outdated and frankly no longer true. You cannot rely on care from cradle to the grave, and the stress of the system as it is now heaps misery upon people who are already poorly. We are technically a rich country with a substandard healthcare system. I think we need to really look at different models of healthcare.