To think you don't quite realise how badly the NHS is suffering until you witness it first hand

[DaisyCat33]

My parents are sitting in A&E today. They've just hit 12 hours. My dad was sent there by his GP for severe neck pain this morning. He's had morphine and an MRI scan, but they're now endlessly waiting to see a Dr about results. He hasn't even got a bed to lay on, despite debilitating neck pain. Many people are standing or sitting on the floor.

The couple sitting next to them have been there since 3am, for difficultly breathing.

I'm shocked. Honestly I knew the NHS had it's issues, but this bad?! It's frightening. I also had an email the other day saying my NHS dentist is closing, and it's basically a "well sorry no dentist for you any more, bye bye"

I don't really know the point of this thread really, I just feel shocked and upset that this is how it is. And I think a lot of people don't even realise? My parents definitely didn't until today. They are losing the will to live sat in that hospital.

Does anyone else just feel utterly helpless and anxious about this?

How many Chief execs does it take to run the NHS? Apparently over 100. Each with a salary of well over 100k. Multiply that by another 9 board members to go with them and a good handful of non exec directors on 5-20k each. Maybe the only issue is getting money to the right place?

@Angrymum22 that is why well people would not care too much about paying to see a GP once in a blue moon. But for anyone with a more serious condition it would get very expensive. My DP is seeing the GP every week at the moment at the GPs insistence and has had to do this before. And with information to call surgery if things change at all.

@Crikeyalmighty I have no idea 🤷‍♀️ . On threads like this posters will keep posting that we’re either “one of the richest countries in the world” or “the 6th richest”, but we’re way down the list at 30th. I wonder where posters think Luxembourg, Switzerland, Qatar, UAE, USA, Norway, Saudi Arabia, Singapore and Bahrain are on the richest list if we really were 6th?

It'll be privatised within 20 years. I'm an NHS worker and can't see it going any other way. It's what the powers that be want. 💰💰💰💰

I have mixed experience and feelings about this. I hate trying to contact my GP, or get anything done via that route because it is so difficult.

My SIL has a history of gynae issues, and has a private scan annually as a consequence. The NHS doesn't provide this sort of 'catch it early so we can investigate anomalies' service, even for someone with her history, so the query fibroids/query tumour changes in her uterine lining would not have been detected unless she went private. She's now being referred to an NHS hospital for an urgent surgical investigation, possibly operation, because she was able to go to the GP with her scan results. The GP was insisting it was all just menopause and would settle down, if only SIL would take HRT.

On the. other hand, my really very old parents (88 and 93) have had excellent care across a range of specialties, both hospital and community based. They've had OT assessments at home, they've had GP visits at home, district nurses coming round to do dressings after a fall, thousands of pounds of dental care for no cost to them. My mother has CML, and is in remission 6 months after diagnosis because she is benefiting from an amazing breakthrough drug which became available only about 15 years ago, which doubtless cost the NHS huge amounts to buy it when it was still on patent. My father, who has prostate cancer, was experiencing some changes in his condition, and his consultant advised going to A&E and waiting in-house for an MRI scan, as being the most effective way of identifying any really critical changes.

So I took him, and yes, we did wait 7 hours to get the scan, and we did leave before a doctor was able to review it and make a decision, because after 9 hours on a hard chair, my dad had really had enough. But when I first began working for the NHS, over 30 years ago, there were 2 MRI scanners in the country, and the waiting list to use them was about a year. My father got a scan on the same day that the consultant advised it, basically by rocking up to A&E, reporting a bit more pain and deteriorating bladder control, and being willing to hang around.

So not sure what my conclusions are really, except that we are asking a huge and ever-growing amount of the NHS, for a population that seems to be getting older and sicker.

I don’t really understand how the NHS gets more and more money, but gets worse and worse with the service. It needs root and branch reform.

https://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/health-care-funding

In terms of absolute GDP, we are 5th or 6th, terms of GDP per capita, we are mid 20s i think.

Both are correct....

The systems are different from one country to another but no one is being denied healthcare because they are poor.

@Dibblydoodahdah not true

"Financial hardship caused by out-of-pocket payments for medicines, medical products such as hearing aids, and dental care affects millions of people, even in Europe’s richest countries, reveals a new WHO report. On International Universal Health Coverage (UHC) Day 2023, the report “Can people afford to pay for health care? Evidence on financial protection in 40 countries in Europe” highlights that out-of-pocket payments push between 1% and 12% of households into poverty or make them poorer.
Out-of-pocket payments lead to catastrophic health spending for between 1% and 20% of households on average. This rises to between 2% and 69% of households in the poorest fifth of the population. People who experience catastrophic health spending may not be able to pay for other basic needs such as food, housing and heating."

https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/12-12-2023-out-of-pocket-payments-for-primary-health-care-unaffordable-for-millions-in-europe-new-who-report-shows

I'm hopeful that Wes Streeting will instigate reform when he's Health Secretary.

I don’t think anyone is saying off all of the elderly, many elderly are still living fairly healthy and fulfilling lives and this will hopefully continue.

the sticking point is, keeping people alive just because we can. That doesn’t sit right with me and i work in nursing so see it every day. Dementia patients in the foetal position in care homes, haven’t moved for years, treated for every little thing. 90 odd years olds still wanting resus, or is they don’t their families often guilt trip them. Those with cancer that cannot be treated opting to have chemo that will just spoil the time they have left. Those who have had strokes being NG or peg fed with no hope of any meaningful recovery. None of this I would want for myself.

then we have the patients that, as has been pointed out, just think things are free and don’t realise the true cost of things. Removing l bandaging or cutting stockings so things just continue to get worse therefore costing more money in equipment and time, no following advice such as taking bed rest as points during they day because they don’t want to etc, they think they’ve paid their way so are entitled to it all when that isn’t how it works. There needs to be a bit more personal responsibility.

i agree that some serious and hard conversations need to be had as it’s only going to get worse

It's what Hunt wants, and Truss et al. We have to fight this because their model is the crap US system that works for no-one. Fly the red flag - it needs doing.

@biscuitnut The older woman does not need physio so that she can train for the Paris olympics. It is so she can mobilise from bed to chair and use stairs and the toilet independently. The alternative is she loses her strength and mobility and becomes dependent on carers visiting or possibly a care home. And which do you think will cost the country more?

It also doesn’t help that hospitals are completely stopped up with social needs. The hospital I work in has the highest number of elderly for the area and the vast majority in there are social admissions and those waiting for carers/homes. Hardly any cottage hospitals or care homes left round here though so no where for them to go and 18months- 2 year waiting for care packages at home

@CHRIS003 our church did do a session at one of the coffee mornings. Issues we found were that many were using smartphones that were 7 or more years old so we're struggling with the app. Some people had 100000000s of apps on their phone so no space to download the app. Smartphone screen text was too small to read and when zoomed in was unweildy to use. Arthritic fingers were struggling with typing. The way the gp system is set up makes it so it turns off all booking functions so it became very futile to try and teach people.

Not everyone comes to church any more. The church advertised it but our church is slightly out of town. We do have parking but not everyone drives. One of our church wardens also volunteers at the local volunteer service and pop in shop and has suggested that a proper session is set up there.

This is where the elderly outreach groups come in. Our local volunteer service is in the centre of town. They have parking, the bus stop is a 1 minute walk away, the bus station is 5 minutes walk away. They have much stronger attendance numbers and run little courses monthly. Last month was all about Power of Attorney and how to go about setting it up. This month it is about how to access care assessments. People know to look out for stuff there. They have more advertising power and as they are a very large group they have more sway with the GP practice in regards to feedbacking access issues. They work closely with age UK, the local council and other groups and are well respected locally.

I think they need to stop giving free prescriptions to people just because they are 60+ for starters. It should be free ONLY to people who can't afford it. So maybe universal credit or pension credit and that's it. It really isn't right that you could be aged 62 still in paid employment, living in a 4 million pound house and because of your age your prescriptions are free (to you anyway, paid for by everyone else who quite possibly have la lot less disposable income themselves)
And something needs to be done about social care. People are dying waiting for ambulances because the ambulance is stuck outside A&E because their patient can't get admitted because there are no beds. The beds are full with people who don't medically need to be there but aren't well enough to be discharged home.
It's a scandal. And pretty much the whole problem is caused by the aging population which isn't exactly a surprise. Surely the governments of the past 40 years have all known this was on the way?

As a teacher married to an NHS worker, between the two of us we can't decided which area is suffering the most. Safe to say both are massively underfunded and have been getting so much worse since 2010.

The current state pension is a few pounds over pension credit. Are you saying they should pay and therefore end up with less money because of having to pay?

It’s like the financial crash - made worse by Labours overspending has been completely erased from your memory. The conservatives were voted in to restore fiscal control of the country. We were on the brink of bankruptcy but it seems like you have amnesia as to why the cuts were even necessary!

And Jeremy Hunt is more or less apologising for not being able to cut taxes! What sort of world are we living in?

Matrons have been back since 2011/12

Also the " sandwich course" with in hospital training has been going for about 7 years.
Nursing Apprenticeship Pathway
Hcas can train as nurses part of the week / work HCA part of the week/ 1-2 days Uni
It's a funded course 37.5 hours paid.

@TigerRag yes! If people have earnings or wealth over whatever cut off is used they should have to pay. Age shouldn't make a difference. Why should it? (Unless they're kids who obviously don't have access to money themselves)

Victim blaming? What utter rubbish!

How about empowering people to get what they need while still trying to relieve pressure on an institution close to collapse?