To think you don't quite realise how badly the NHS is suffering until you witness it first hand

[DaisyCat33]

My parents are sitting in A&E today. They've just hit 12 hours. My dad was sent there by his GP for severe neck pain this morning. He's had morphine and an MRI scan, but they're now endlessly waiting to see a Dr about results. He hasn't even got a bed to lay on, despite debilitating neck pain. Many people are standing or sitting on the floor.

The couple sitting next to them have been there since 3am, for difficultly breathing.

I'm shocked. Honestly I knew the NHS had it's issues, but this bad?! It's frightening. I also had an email the other day saying my NHS dentist is closing, and it's basically a "well sorry no dentist for you any more, bye bye"

I don't really know the point of this thread really, I just feel shocked and upset that this is how it is. And I think a lot of people don't even realise? My parents definitely didn't until today. They are losing the will to live sat in that hospital.

Does anyone else just feel utterly helpless and anxious about this?

@endofthelinefinally we all pay for the NHS. It is only free at the point of delivery.

The NHS in England is bad - conservative government
The NHS in Scotland is bad - SNP government
The NHS in Wales is bad - Labour government
The NHS in Northern Ireland is bad - no government.

Responsibility for Public health was taken out of the NHS and placed in local authorities in 2012. At the time this was widely seen as a positive move because generally to improve public health you have to tackle the wider social determinants- poverty, poor housing, low educational attainment, lack of exercise etc

however what has happened in reality is that although public health has its own budget ring fenced, tne collapse of local authority funding means in practice it struggles to make an impact. Councils are having to dispense with a lot of things that impacted positive on public health eg parks, leisure centres, they can’t tackle the huge issues like the poor state of housing because that’s in a other bit of the council that’s had its budget cut ditto education.

Plus prevention is bloody hard. People aren’t stupid, they know on one level they should exercise more, eat more veg, not drink too much etc but for many it’s just another demand made on them. When they’ve had another crap week in a job they hate trying to juggle a load of things and manage on a reduced income, they don’t feel like going for a run

Why are they tinkering with paying for social care for richer individuals when the basics of a&e cannot be sorted. We could have a decent NHS will less services but the important ones.

That's Rishi all over though. The country has no shortage of major problems he could choose to sort - the NHS, the teacher shortage, the crisis with migrants on small boats. So what does he choose to tackle? T Levels...

It's Really scary that people are dying in hospital waiting rooms, something needs to change drastically and quickly.

The crux of it is that the problems are actually worsening the problem.

I had gallstones and was on the waiting list for surgery for the best part of a year (that was 6 years ago - it would be even longer now). I ended up in A&E/admitted to hospital 3 times in that period (jaundice, etc - not simply struggling with the pain), each time using stretched resources and increasing the A&E waiting time for others there. If I'd been operated on sooner, as I would have been in other countries, those visits wouldn't have been necessary - the overall burden I placed on the NHS would have been lower.

The whole thing is so broken right now.

I agree; it is chilling to read this sort of stuff. It makes me frightened for my own old age if people are going to assume I'm a burden on the NHS and so should be left to die.

A random question, what happens if a member of the Royal Family has a serious emergency? It's obvious that they have private healthcare for ongoing things like dentistry or planned treatment. However there simply isn't the equivalent of a private A&E.

What if one of Will & Kate's kids have an accident or illness that requires a dash to A&E? With 3 kids, this scenario has almost certainly happened before. Was whatever landed Kate in hospital a semi-emergency?

I just can't imagine them waiting 12+ hours in an NHS A&E even though that's technically, and legally, the only option available. If an emergency happens, do they simply ring ahead and get admitted to a private hospital which normally does not offer any A&E services? Do they get emergency doctors to come their home at an hour of the day?

Don't assume its fabulous elsewhere.
I used to sing the praises of health in Australia, but like everywhere government is reluctant to put money into healthcare. The amount GPs are paid to see a patient has not changed since 1988. So now a visit to the docs is about 50 to 100quid.

A friend of my daughter dislocated her knee at (high) school at 11.30 am. The ambulance came at 6pm in the dark, as it was winter. The girl was chattering in the cold, laying on cold concrete for over 6 hours and she could not be lifted onto anything due to the pain. It was about 5deg when she was collected.
AND we have to pay an annual ambulance subscription (or pay economic cost of ambulance)
So its more that governments care about tax cuts for the rich rather than reasonable tax and reasonable services.

“Bottom line is over the course of decades, the UK spends less per capita then almost any other health system in Europe.
We've only caught up now by the extra spend on Covid......”
Youre right @Alexandra2001

I foresee many Tory statements about never spent so much ahead of the next election. I hope that every single interviewer, audience, constituent or others being spun this lack of transparency on spend rebuts the claim and makes this point.

For me it was giving birth which really opened my eyes to how bad it was. I’d never really had to use hospitals before then and it was a huge shock.

My youngest child is now three so I guess things will have only got worse.

I really feel for the staff as it must be awful to work in such an under resourced and chaotic environment.

I am currently decluttering, repairing and sorting out the family home of 30 years. We want to downsize and would love a bungalow, but there are none at all in my area. We have looked at retirement flats and tbh, for what they cost they are awful. Huge service charges and management fees, no garden or green space. We will have to move a long way from the friends and places we know and it is daunting. It isn't as easy as just selling up and moving on. I am mindful of the possibility of needing a carer at some point. If I need a live in carer, that requires a spare room and a separate bathroom for their use. I have been looking at properties for a couple of years now and there isn't much that is suitable. My friend downsized into the only bungalow in the road. They had planned for a live in carer and allocated one pension plus savings, but because of only one bathroom her husband had to go into a care home that is very basic but costs £1800 a week. It isn't simple.
When I was a child there were lots of "old people's bungalows" around, but with the state of housing now it is all high rise flats.

I'm sorry for everyone struggling in hospital.

To give a different perspective, 8 yo had low oxygen sats Tuesday. GP said call 999. 999 were lovely, said we'll send an ambulance when we can. It was there in 15 minutes. Paramedics were amazing, really thorough and advised we went in. We did go into KidsA&E. Into a bed. Took a few hours but had two lots of bloods and an x-ray. Asked for food and he got a sandwich and cake lunchtime. Went up to ward probably within 5 hours.

Parents (one per kid) are fed alongside kids three meals a day.

We got discharged last night.

The only thing that surprised me from last stay was our bedding wasn't changed. 6 years ago it was changed daily, child's and parents but id have had to ask for a clean bed yesterday if we'd stayed in (DS spilt something).

And for clarity we're a poor Midlands town, hence feeding the parents.

Hope anyone in ATM is doing better soon

Everything is broken thanks to successive governments selling off public services into private hands. When I was growing up we had a health service that worked, dental check ups every six months, a postal service that delivered letters on time, regular rural buses, roads without potholes, decent schools.

Suggest that each of us with the sorts of experiences described in this thread write to your MP and copy in the health minister and Wes Streeting. Every single one. it’s something practical, quick to do via they work for you web site, and the more individuals describe their personal experience surely a bit of power in numbers.

And I hope Wes Streeting is following this thread. Shocking lack of a service that, yes, we pay for.

I know!
And over the years that spending adds up to like 100 billion more money to health services in countries we compare ourselves to.

@ABwithAnItch Of course it is not totally free but the costs are really minimal.

How much is minimal ? How much do you pay monthly for your health insurance in Belgium ?

We had the same, the ambulance never arrived.

After 2 hours, when the student was out of the seizure, and strong enough to stand up, he was walked to a car by the door and taken to A&E by staff.

I do know that. I worked in it for nearly 40 years. We don't pay nearly enough for it and those that do are heavily subsidising those that don't. Many, many consumers have no idea of/ don't appreciate the real costs. I wouldn't object to paying more if we had something like the French system. Having been on PAYE all my life I have never had the opportunity to avoid paying tax.

I honestly feel this is all deliberate to get us all to pay for healthcare in the not too distant future. Perhaps I'm in the minority but I cannot understand why GP surgeries are not open longer and 7 days a week, I'm guessing there is a shortage of medical staff to do this and budget cuts thrown in too? At my GP surgery they have a triage service so you get a call back from the doctor who then decides if they need to see you or if you require medication only.
The issue is that the surgery opens at 8am and I kid you not when I tried to call them every day for the past 2 weeks, by 8.01am a recorded message tells you that all appointments/telephone consultations have been taken, how is that possible at 1 minute after they have opened. You cannot go down to the surgery in person as you cannot get in, they will not let you, they have to buzz open the door from reception to allow you access.
I have a water infection, brought antibiotics from an online pharmacy at a cost of £25, but it is 3 days worth of tablets, I need a longer course, except I cannot get anymore as the online pharmacy won't allow me to, I have tried other online pharmacies as the pain is pretty bad now and they must use a centralised database as they have all refused me advising me to go the doctor, except I can't because I cannot get an appointment.
It sucks although I have the utmost of respect for all health care workers.

Something needs to change but I don't what or how

Having been to A&E in the last week with a long wait, what I did notice was the triage was almost straight away, and they had someone going round doing regular obs.

I was in with chest pain, and I was seen in much less than 5 minutes, given a quick ECG and blood test among other things. From that, they could see that I wasn't in immediate danger, so actually the fact I had to wait 11 hours was a good thing in some ways. Those who were deemed at immediate risk at the triage were seen much sooner.

I suspect with the Op's dad, this is also the case. They've assessed him as being in pain (as I was) but not in danger to life, so they are prioritising those who are.

Conversely I was in with ds a couple of months ago and he was assessed as needing immediate care, and he went straight from triage to a cubicle, and had a drip set up fairly quickly once they'd established that was the need.

It isn't nice having to wait for 11 hours, I know, but at least if I had needed to be seen quickly then I would have been.

What is the vote?
You are not unreasonable to point out the problems of the NHS. You are unreasonable to not have heard about them before now?

Loads of people haven't had an NHS dentist for a very long time. You've been quite lucky. In 2010 I found a list of them in my city, but none were taking new patients so I took a private dentist. I was referred to the NHS for wisdom tooth removal though.

Fixing the NHS is extremely complicated, and is about more than throwing money at the problem. As PPs have pointed out, people are living longer but those extra years are at the end of life, with all the typical illnesses that older people get needing to be treated.

As new treatments and advances are made, we need to pay for them as well as all the other stuff we were already providing. They are not cheap.

The whole health system is disjointed and disorganised, so isn't providing value for money in many cases. The NHS isn't linked up to social care in a budgetary sense, so local authorities and NHS trusts are played off against each other trying to make ends meet, leading to poorer outcomes for patients and more money wasted.

NHS trusts have had their capital budgets slashed, so some hospitals are now held together with spit and duct tape.

It's a huge great mess, it needs radical overhaul but it's such a huge job that nobody wants to take it in one go - they pick off smaller issues to solve in isolation, without really sorting out the underlying problems. It would be so, so expensive to fix too, and it needs to keep running during any overhaul, further complicating matters.

The Conservative government in England decides the funding everywhere. I'm not defending Welsh Labour's running of the Welsh NHS, but the funding they get is a percentage of UK funding.