VAT on private school fees - will it change how you vote?

[Iwishicouldflyhigh]

Following on from the other interesting thread about whether it will be implemented, will this policy change how you vote either way?
For me - i've voted Labour and Tory over the years, but Tory for the most recent GE's. This year, i've been thinking seriously about how i'd vote at the next GE and it wasn't definitely a Tory vote - i was definitely a floating voter.
However, my children are at PS and so i will now most definitely be voting Tory (not just because how the VAT will seriously impact us - child number 3 will now not be going to the prep that we had lined up for her, she'll enter the local primary until secondary school - but how i think that it will affect schools negatively and children negatively).
I have a lot of left leaning friends who educate privately and whilst they cannot bring themselves to vote Tory, they won't vote Labour either at the next GE because of this policy.

It seems to me that this policy is only a vote loser (ie many Labour voters and 'floaters' who school privately won't vote for them at the next GE) and not a vote winner (ie i can't imagine that many Tory or 'floaters' will vote for Labour solely on this policy).

AiBU to think that Labour have really shot themselves in the foot with this idea?

Not paying VAT on education is no more of a tax break than not paying VAT on funerals.

This notion that such a tax that is illegal in the EU and not levied in any other country in the world is suddenly seen by some as a significant fiscal oversight in the UK requiring immediate attention to correct an obvious error is extremely disingenuous.

Surely a tax break is something that saves you tax. People who send their kids to schools don’t get a reduction in their tax because of it so it’s not a tax break. If you could offset your private school fees against your income for the purpose of income tax so that it lowered your income tax that would be a tax break (I’m not suggesting this it would be a very bad idea just giving an example of a tax break)

I’m fine with that too! Everyone should be paying in to elevating state school education (and health care services etc etc) not just PS parents!

So we come full circle and it is glaringly obvious that Labour’s VAT on PS fees as it’s only plausible policy to improve state education is simply envy based politics!

Yes you’re right. And some countries do have this as it reduces the burden on the state

However this is the norm in many other countries who have a thriving state and private education system. PS parents get a tax rebate at the end of the tax year based on the number of children they have and whether they are in primary or secondary PS. The amount/rate is fixed and goes towards lowering their income tax bracket. You also don’t get state school parents up in arms about it, nor do you have governments who penalise PS parents. Rather they all happily co-exist and raise tolerant, forward thinking children. Imagine that!

It’s a first step, removing tax breaks. They aren’t mutually exclusive nor do I have to subscribe wholly to party policitics.
I’d removed tax breaks and increase funding through adequate taxation, with a focus on capital gains and corporate tax for practical reasons, moving capital gains in line with other income. Potentially also raising tax brackets taxes too

Makes perfect sense!

It’s crazy where we’re heading but it’s the combination of a party who have been out for a long time had very little funding policies beyond this gimmick

But yes I’ve experienced that system it worked well, moreover people vote for it

That is precisely what happens in Germany. You get tax breaks for using private schools and/or private healthcare.

If I want a luxury car, I state my family needs it as it’s safer, we have to drive long distances and the children prefer a quieter engine I will pay more tax on the luxury.
if I buy a bigger house I say my family needs, I pay more tax for the luxury benefits of the space etc through stamp duty
If I want a luxury education, or any other luxury business access, I’d presume the tax is paid in line with other luxuries.
It’s the general rule, and would be considered a tax break if it was removed.
No one is saying private education can’t exist, but factually… it’s a luxury service over and above the norm.
Taxation is ultimately the redistribution of wealth. Not paying for services as an individual and expecting it all to be recouped through the service you get personally.

Completely agree.

I'm someone who's happy to pay tax - and even more in taxes - towards well funded and efficient public services.

We're in the fortunate position of having relatively high paid careers and little in the way of outgoings - DD was privately educated but that finished years ago now and mortgages are cleared.

I regularly look on in despair at the tinkering with taxes that the Tories are currently up to their ears in. It's incredibly obvious who benefits from the various scheme they think up, and it's not your average working person that's for sure.

Scrapping inheritance tax will help who exactly? I bet it's under 1% of the population at most in our local town and villages, but to read some of the press it's a fantastic tax giveaway for everyone by the ever benevolent Cons.

Adding VAT to school fees might just about rebalance the effect of scrapping inheritance tax in terms of number of winners and losers.

What about the cap they announced on care costs? Yippee - so an elderly couple's care is capped at £172k. But bear in mind that's only the care component of being in an old people's home, not the accommodation etc.

So an average elderly couple in most parts of the UK except London and the Southeast would still be left with zero. But funnily enough, with massively higher properly values those in the Tories' favourite areas will often benefit substantially.

What is currently happening is the the country's wealth is being drained from the many for the few, but wherever I look there seems to be a huge mass of people who only see the headline and not the detail/reality.

So back to school fees - if vat was applied at 20% it would have cost us an extra £fewK per year for DD's schooling. Not insignificant but not a deal breaker in the grand scheme of making the decision to go private, and it wouldn't have changed our decision. I'd much rather have paid vat on the fees and at the same time seen a fairer tax system implemented alongside it. I do think Labour can deliver on that.

We need to get away from the tax breaks for the wealthy and ultra-wealthy and make things more equitable. If it means that I/we personally end up paying more in taxes over all then I'm happy with that as I trust it would mean more money going to the right places. I honestly don't think Labour would be going after those of us paying our taxes via PAYE for more though anyway, as the current system already unduly burdens working people while those making money/wealth in other ways avoid their share.

So on that basis if I buy hovis rather than Asda smart price white sliced I am getting a tax break

That makes no sense unless you consider virtually everything as a luxury.

If you want a funeral service you should pay VAT because you can dispose of a body without the need for a funeral therefore funerals are a luxury purchase.

The same argument applies for countless goods and services that currently don’t attract VAT.

Couldn't agree more

The Germany system has been raised as a comparison. It’s not comparable. It’s a system of alternative education, access to religious school, waldorf, Steiner etc.
It’s a state supported right to alternative education, it legally must be affordable and can’t turn a profit. Some states don’t even allow fees.
Results are broadly in line with state schools. Teachers must still be qualified
French private schools are also generally about accessing religious education. I guess nearer our voluntary aided religious schools, church schools who own the building but follow the state rules such as qualified teachers and are state funded.
Our private schools are realistically plowing high fees into a luxury product. Sports facilities, grounds, extensive land and buildings, decor and a general club for the elite. They are a roundabout route to being more likely to access better (state funded universities). Your luxury product gets you better access to later state supported education, even if you aren’t using it before 18. You get a special network in too. It’s really not the German, or French, system. That’s the bottom like for why we aren’t all co-existing in quite the same way. Nothing else. The inequality is stark, and that’s the source of the friction.

Look at Aus tax rebates

Nothing is that simple. I could chose funeral arrangements that were only partially exempt from tax. I could have a non-traditional multiple day event. That wouldn’t be fully exempt.

You are unnecessarily trying to complicate the scenario I raised.

The vast majority of people have a funeral service held and concluded on a single day. Why should that not also attract VAT based on your definitions of luxury?

There is no need for a funeral service. That is a luxury option that is over and above what is required to dispose of a body.

It’s exactly the point.
luxuries are over and above. Everyone has a funeral, you’d pay tax if it went over and above into a multiple day event.
school, want a private school with over and above facilities, tax
food, no vat, chef- vat.
that’s what a luxury, taxed luxury is. Something over and above beyond what the vast majority do. Like private education

I’m not often green eyed over other countries but getting the electorate to a place where it gets that tax policies impact behaviour is one thing that gets me

A different example but low CT in RoI and a surplus - we’d never get close to an electorate able to vote for a bonus such as that

The biggest thing for Labour is this policy and it’s a farce / gimmick. Depressing

As far as I'm concerned getting the Tories out is the main priority for the next election. The country is high and dry, with people unable to put food on the table. Their struggles are much more of an issue than well off people having to "sacrifice" a foreign holiday a year or do some of their own cleaning.

Each student in state school between the ages of 5-16 costs the state £7690.
DD would also be entitled to £2530 pupil premium so DD going back into the system would cost the state £10,220.
20% VAT on school fees are going to be on average 3-4k per child. So it’s not going to need many people like us who will become a drain on the public purse and then the policy won’t raise anywhere near what they are calculating. For every child that ends up back in the state system, at least two children/lots of VAT on school fees will be needed to pay for it before there is any benefit.
I also have concerns that the funds raised from this policy aren’t going to be ring-fenced for education. So the education system could (and is likely) going to be worse off for it.
For DD, being at an independent, it’s not about her having an advantage, it’s about levelling up. Which is what pupil premium is supposed to be for. However, in our experience, what happens is that it goes to top up funding for those SEN children with inadequate EHCP banding and therefore funding for the support that is needed for them rather than benefiting the school as a whole or previously looked after child. DD has only been at her school a year after a disastrous start in a state school where her emotional needs couldn’t be met. Having her needs met is not a ‘luxury’. She hasn’t had the ‘luxury’ of a normal start in life.
This policy is short sighted but it not being implemented thoughtfully will be even more so. I do feel like I might as well bang my head against a brick wall with some views on this thread though so not sure if my points will make a shred of difference.
@Morph22010 your post was excellent this morning.

The VAT isn't necessarily going to be 20%. Private schools fees increase all the time anyway and there hasn't been a mass exodus so I don't think there will be.

Custom and practice and majority use is irrelevant. If everyone suddenly decided to buy diamond jewellery should it then become VAT exempt?

A funeral is a luxury. There is no need for it regardless of what the vast majority normally do.

The same is true for countless other goods and services.

What if you could prove that the state education provision being offered to you was inadequate? Surely then private school is not a luxury, it is a necessity.

By your reasoning you should then be exempt from paying VAT on private school fees.

However you look at it the idea that any educational services should attract VAT is nonsense which is why it is illegal in the EU and not implemented anywhere else in the entire world.

The fact that Starmer and co have put such a tiny revenue raising policy at the forefront of their policy messaging speaks volumes. Unfortunately it plays out well to the uninformed who lap it up.

I don't think its fair to talk about users of state education as a drain on the public purse or a cost (even if they are your own child)

State education is an investment we've decided to collectively make in our children and our future productivity and society, particularly when we are too old to be running everything.

Im fine with parents deciding they want to invest at a greater level than the state does though.