VAT on private school fees - will it change how you vote?

[Iwishicouldflyhigh]

Following on from the other interesting thread about whether it will be implemented, will this policy change how you vote either way?
For me - i've voted Labour and Tory over the years, but Tory for the most recent GE's. This year, i've been thinking seriously about how i'd vote at the next GE and it wasn't definitely a Tory vote - i was definitely a floating voter.
However, my children are at PS and so i will now most definitely be voting Tory (not just because how the VAT will seriously impact us - child number 3 will now not be going to the prep that we had lined up for her, she'll enter the local primary until secondary school - but how i think that it will affect schools negatively and children negatively).
I have a lot of left leaning friends who educate privately and whilst they cannot bring themselves to vote Tory, they won't vote Labour either at the next GE because of this policy.

It seems to me that this policy is only a vote loser (ie many Labour voters and 'floaters' who school privately won't vote for them at the next GE) and not a vote winner (ie i can't imagine that many Tory or 'floaters' will vote for Labour solely on this policy).

AiBU to think that Labour have really shot themselves in the foot with this idea?

What difference does PS make to your ability to do your job?

I'm genuinely interested. We have fribds where one is a consultant and the other is a GP. All their children are state educated. Another set of friends where one is a GP, the other is a pharmacist - both children state educated. Another couple where one is a doctor, thd other ix a nurse,children are state educated.

I honestly don't know why being a medic means your dc have to be privately educated.

The point is that if you have a long hours job and you work somewhere where state wraparound school care is practically non existent, then your options are either to hire a nanny or pay for private school. Both of these are a form of 'money to buy an advantage'.

I think that for a lot of couples where both parents have big busy jobs, there is the desire to continue with those careers while also ensuring that their kids are advantaged and enriched in various ways.

A SAHM or someone with a low-stress part time job can spend afternoons carting children around to extra curriculars and activities and tutors, and I can see how busy professional dual-career types could feel a twinge of "Other kids are getting all these advantages, while our kids are in this mediocre kids-club childcare for hours."

A private school may be seen as a way to maintain kids at the same kind of level as a parent who has a lot of time and energy to spend on childrearing.

I don't really understand the fixation with extra curriculars and am skeptical about how beneficial a lot of this stuff is, but I think that's the idea.

It's not really about "being able to work" in most cases - it's about "being able to work without feeling like one's kids are being disadvantaged as a result of the working."

Oatflat24, if you are living in a village with no family nearby and VAT is going to make private school fees really hard, maybe you need to think about moving? I think trying to manage kids in a rural area with two stressful long-hours jobs is going to be very hard. You might be better off in an area where they can be more independent as they grow older.

So what?! They can do what they like! If they think that their DC PS gives a much higher standard of education than their local state option - like I do!! - then they can educate their child however they wish. Without needing to make excuses for their choice to people like you!

Why will overseas students be exempt from VAT?

@coffeeaddict77 they are trialing remote access and partnerships with overseas schools as I have said previously. These schools are already paying a huge amount for advice and affiliation. They will pay even more for a student to study at the school, all be it remotely and with one short study visit which will be allowed without any VAT consequences.
It’s a plan many schools have caught on to since the pandemic when remote learning became the norm. Overseas students seem much more on board with remote learning than we are and as it’s in a school that’s based overseas but is a branch of the school over here, it will be seen as an extension of the school. This is how they will get round it.
If the places are taken up by a student that’s not physically in this country studying, they cannot charge VAT. It’s already being tested at the moment as to if it’s viable and we are hearing that it is. My DS’ school are doing so with schools in China, Oman and are in talks with two other schools presently for contingency.

I think maybe these businesses can appreciate they’ve had a pretty good run on tax breaks and charitable status. Realistically it’s likely no one will be hit for a full 20% once recoverable elements are factored in. Maybe 10-15%
In recent years private schools fees have risen hugely in comparison to both existing fees and average earnings. There’s been no exodus from private schools. Fees rose about 6% on average in 2023 alone, these were absorbed by families. Wealth inequality is huge in the population, and the 6% using private schools with rising fees isn’t changing despite constant above inflation uses.
realistically nothing points towards a likely influx of pupils into the state sector. Plus, most of the state sector is struggling with pupil numbers and funding. There’s not going to be a need for new state schools. In fact some extra pupils would be useful for funding (DFE funding, not your local area! It brings money into the area).
This isn’t going to harm state schools at all. Most families in private will find the 10-15% extra, maybe less if schools offset some fees.
I just can’t get worked up about a group of pupils with increasing resources, whilst 94% of pupils in this country have had year on year funding losses.
I worked with my oldest two in two long hour jobs with my husband. Childcare is hard, but some of us have to find solutions. We do. It’s often a creative jumble. However, some just have to.

If they genuinely can up their revenues so much in this way they will be able to reduce fees for students in the UK to compensate for the VAT rise.

I think maybe these businesses can appreciate they’ve had a pretty good run on tax breaks and charitable status.

What has charitable status got to do with anything? That isn’t linked with the VAT position, and the Labour Party have said they’re not planning to change charitable status of schools.

I hope so @coffeeaddict77 but the crux of the matter is that the government are not going to get this pot of gold that they seem to think they are. My main concern is the impact on the state system. My DD is adopted for example, if she was to go back into the state system, we have priority over which school she would go to and has a pupil premium of around £7K above the usual state costs of her place at state school. We are just one example. The state isn’t having to pay this right now but it may have to if we find that the VAT add on is too much….we already sacrifice a lot to send her. But she needed the smaller ratio numbers. It’s very sad.

I am sceptical that private schools are full of people in your position. It's also a bit laughable when people with children at private schools say their main concern is the impact of this policy on state schools.

I’m offended at this because it is my main concern if I think there’s a real possibility that my DD could end up back in the state system and you should be concerned too…..
This and the amount of neurodivergence that is being diagnosed in our children. CAMHS waiting lists are now up to four years for assessment as there is so much demand. There is a sea of need out there. There are also many more SEN children that you think are currently in independent because of similar reasons to us. Be as sceptical as you wish, but don’t be naive about the disaster that this could be. You think the state system is bad now? Just wait until the influx of additional need goes its way.

They could easily get around this by letting schools for children with SEN apply for exemption from VAT.

You’ve ignored the word AND @Another76543 . I didn’t link them as the same thing or dependent on each other, I listed two benefits they’ve had compared to other businesses that they’ve had a good run on. One is being removed, at one point both were proposed.
Its hard to have a discussion if you cherry pick part of what I said, ignore the overall point and then make a side comment.

I’m quite happy also to support children with needs in the state system appropriately. As a high tax payer I have no issue with this example attracting funding to use the state system. It’s a minority of cases and completely affordable.

So Labour are dropping the much needed green investment, but are still marching ahead with causing stress to parents and children? Because it’s this group who’re to blame for the state of education and the countries finances?

I could just about understand it if they said the change won’t impact any child already in years 7+ to allow any child currently in secondary education to complete. This would also mean anyone whose kids were in primary education would be forewarned when making secondary choices and no child would have to switch schools in GCSE prep years. Additionally, state schools would have time to prep for an expansion in space. To do it immediately would create a chaotic shitshow.

I have one child in state and the other private. They are each in the right schools for them. The one in private was moved due to bullying in the state school and we forgo things so they can attend. I can’t afford a sudden hike, so I risk having to move her in a GCSE year. Where to, I don’t know because DC is not going back to the school they originally left.

Starmer and Reeves can sit smugly thinking they’ve played well to the gallery, but this is going to turn into a shitshow which will backfire. Fag packet, headline generating ‘idea’.

Have never voted Conservative in my life, but DH and I will do if Labour don’t rethink this.

Completely agree with you on this one!

It would also have to extend to previously looked after children too. To avoid pupil premium payouts.

Also, I’ve sat on an SEN panel for a council.
We constantly had parent appeals from private schools. Kids needing 1:1, the schools wanting any extra resources paid for and parents not being able to afford it.They came to the LA to appeal for funding for the private places. No one was getting free SEN support. The LA obviously did not fund private education other than when specialist placements were required in an EHCP. This kids came to the state system as they got too big too manage.
We also had a big influx of SEN/ average students or emotional needs at years 2,5, and 9 into the state system. Huge numbers asked to leave prior to exam years, the next keystage.
I also tutored. Again I had loads of year 5 and 9 pupils coming for support, threatened with being asked to leave due to low grades.
From my experience for every supported child that is lucky enough to fit the box of being academic enough but needing a quieter space there are many failed children.
I don’t buy that independent schools overall offer much to SEN, apart from in a real minority of cases than could be deal with individually

Absolutely.

100% this.

I also don’t understand what they plan to do with the money? Although education does need investment, just throwing one group of parents money at state schools won’t help.

There needs to be root and branch reform. Everything from an overhaul of the curriculum to new rules over standards of behaviour with more backing for teachers and headteachers in regard to disciplining students. But I guess that’s harder than pointing at a bunch of people and saying ‘they are rich, it’s all their fault, let’s take their money’.

The middle class should be on notice that this is just the start. There will be no plan to grow the economy or build a closer relationship with Europe to get us back into the single market. It will just be continuous shaking down of the higher earners on PAYE who can’t hide their money or move it abroad. It will be university and healthcare next.

Schools are ridiculously outdated hodge podge of Victorian ideas overlaid with other stuff. They are like a horse and cart on a motorway. Need massive overhaul there’s an AI tsunami coming - state and private both but do politicians have the nerve to do it?

The way things are going , there will only be 2 groups of people: The super rich and the working poor.

The middle classes and being battered from all angles to support the poor and the rich. There’s barely a point in aspiring to improve your lot in this country. There will always be someone working out how they can take stuff from you. Maybe I should just hand my wage packet over to the government, Labour or Tory, at the end of the month.

I am pretty sure it will backfire. Brexit bus rage is always handy to use to batter leavers. Once the unintended consequences start it would be the same with the schools VAT. Labour may even be aware of it but are desperate to make it to number 10. They would try to deal with the consequences afterwards but once this is done you would never get it back. I don’t think Labour have it in the bag yet they can go down. They are for example very quiet on immigration which is key. KS previous jobs make him unsuitable to deal with this in a firm manner so may be you never see this VAT after all.