VAT on private school fees - will it change how you vote?

[Iwishicouldflyhigh]

Following on from the other interesting thread about whether it will be implemented, will this policy change how you vote either way?
For me - i've voted Labour and Tory over the years, but Tory for the most recent GE's. This year, i've been thinking seriously about how i'd vote at the next GE and it wasn't definitely a Tory vote - i was definitely a floating voter.
However, my children are at PS and so i will now most definitely be voting Tory (not just because how the VAT will seriously impact us - child number 3 will now not be going to the prep that we had lined up for her, she'll enter the local primary until secondary school - but how i think that it will affect schools negatively and children negatively).
I have a lot of left leaning friends who educate privately and whilst they cannot bring themselves to vote Tory, they won't vote Labour either at the next GE because of this policy.

It seems to me that this policy is only a vote loser (ie many Labour voters and 'floaters' who school privately won't vote for them at the next GE) and not a vote winner (ie i can't imagine that many Tory or 'floaters' will vote for Labour solely on this policy).

AiBU to think that Labour have really shot themselves in the foot with this idea?

100%

Yep yep. The reality is that the top 5% pay a lower rate of tax than the working classes (middle, working, poor). That poster going on about “if you want gold plated services, you need to pay more tax” regarding anyone not wealthy was so far off the mark. The wealthy are not paying their fair share of taxes.

Taxing private schools is progressive. The way the wealthy are fighting back on this is by saying “think of the middle class children whose parents can barely scrape together the pennies.”

Please! Like private schools can’t fund bursaries and scholarships so more children can go for free or cheap. I think the middle classes just don’t like slipping down into charity case territory where most families are in regards to private schools. So the entire campaign to fight it plays on that fear, that loss of pride.

Our school system should be more like Finland.

I checked the libdem stance on this and I agree. Not in favour of VAT on private schools, however, want to make sure schools who have charitable status are doing what they should be. I’m completely in agreement with that.

I believe labour dropped their charitable school policy.

personal situation: have one DC still in private school. It’s manageable for us. we won’t whine about it. Will probably move DC into state for sixth form though.

Our school system should be more like Finland.

100% agree.

I agree. The state partly funds private schools. An excellent idea.

"the middleclass"? It is not a tax on the middle class as most middle class people, the professional classes have no chance of private school fees being an option! What is the massive fuss it hardly affects anyone, private schools just need to cut their cloth or apply to be state Academies!

There's already highly skilled people here, working incredibly hard that want a progressive economy, where the wealthiest are just a little bit less wealthy and society is a bit more Equal with wages, a good education for all is wholly beneficial to the economy.

I can't see the point of this policy - the small amount of money they may be able to put back into state education will be completely offset by the influx of children into state schools whose parents can no longer to privately educate them - thus putting more of a strain on the education system.

My Son is in private sixth form - mostly because he struggled in a big state comprehensive - my daughter seems to be going the same way so might end up in private school once her brother leaves (can't afford two sets of school fees - and would struggle with one set if this policy comes into force)

Having said that, nothing would induce me to vote Tory - they are a bunch of corrupt liars and I think Tory Austerity is partly responsible for the state the country is in at the moment.

“Private schools (those not operated by the government or local authorities) do exist in Finland but are mostly faith-based, Steiner, Montessori or university-run. Of 2,100 institutions providing primary and lower secondary education, only 65 of them are private and the majority of their funding comes from the government.

They must follow the national curriculum guidelines and cannot be run for profit – charging for tuition in basic education is prohibited by the Finnish constitution.”

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/finland-no-fee-paying-schools-pupils-perform-better-privately-educated-british-2664640

and I think Tory Austerity is partly responsible for the state the country is in at the moment.

Economists and IMF say austerity doesn’t work especially after a recession. U.K. had sluggish growth after austerity as well as decimating public services. After the 2008 financial global crash Obama’s administration in the US increased spending and their economy bounced back unlike the U.K.

I’m against it and it will influence my vote. And my children go to state school. For two reasons.

Firstly, the state schools in my town - especially the secondaries - are already horrendously oversubscribed. We live in a bit of a catchment black spot - we’re already in waiting list territory for our local secondary, so we will be very dependent on people who are closer to the school opting to go private. If even 3 or 4 extra kids stay in the state sector then my kids will be on a bus to a failing secondary in the next town over. No thanks.

Second reason is that whilst my kids aren’t privately educated, I do pay for things like swimming and football and drama lessons, and they’ve also had some maths tutoring. And we won’t be able to afford a 20% increase on those. Assuming the proposal is simply to remove the zero VAT rating on anything educational - which I assume it must be, because paying for any form of education is an unfair advantage, and it would be absurd to let rich people take up places in good state schools then spend all the money they’ve saved on private tutoring with no VAT - then my kids will have to give up their hobbies.

I can’t knowingly vote for my kids to be screwed over. And yes I know, I know, the VAT will generate billions that will immediately be spent on ensuring that every child gets a place at a wonderful state school on their doorstep and giving £350 million a week to the NHS. Except it won’t because the private schools will just offset it against the cost of their building projects, so it won’t translate to real gains for the Treasury for years, if it ever does.

If won't effect private tutors unless they earn over the VAT threshold which is 85k at the moment.

It wouldn't sway me either way. While I don't agree with its not the most pressing matter for me.

But in terms of politics it will not win them any votes, only lose them.

Do you believe higher earners are over taxed?

How much tax do you think is reasonable to pay on 100k? 200k?

It might win lot of votes depending on what they say the money will be used for.

Nah. Still want labour in and Tories out. We will have to try and cover the extra

https://eurydice.eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-education-systems/finland/overview

This explains it a little better than a left leaning media portrayal. Their headline says “Finland has no private schools”, and their article says “Finland however, has no fee-paying schools at all.” This is misleading at best. What is different is that Finland does not allow schools to charge for the basic element of education. That is funded by the state. They are allowed to charge for other things

“In Finland, education is publicly funded. Only 2% of pupils in compulsory education attend schools that have a private provider. Also these schools are publicly funded and they cannot have any tuition fees.”

I’m fairly sure that schools in Finland don’t charge VAT on fees, although I’m not 100% certain. In any case, most private school parents would be happy to pay VAT on the fees they pay, assuming they got state funding for the basic education element.

Speaking of Finland though, the basic rate of VAT is 24%, much higher than the UK. A quick google shows that a salary of €100k would have a tax of around €48k. A UK salary of £100k would only pay around £32k. Healthcare is not free. This is why it’s different and probably explains why the education system is good.

Unfortunately, as a country, the UK don’t want to accept that they need to more tax and stop expecting everything for free. We can’t just keep expecting the tiny minority of the top wealthiest to keep paying increased taxes. It will never raise enough. We need increased taxes from a much greater proportion of society. It isn’t popular though. If it happened, perhaps we could start funding the state education system properly and people wouldn’t feel they have to use the private system. The best way of reducing the desire to use private schools is to improve the state schools.

Imagine having a Prime Minister who can’t determine the sex of his female electorate. We’d be bonkers to vote for such an individual. People think it’s bad when it’s the Tory old boys club, and yet millions of women are happy to vote for a party who deny their existence. Bizarre.

The majority of whom are natural Tory voters anyway, so no great loss.

Bloody hell it's Sir John Curtice.

Ahhh the "im ok Jacks" with enough money to send their kids to PS keep voting Torys! You are the reason our country is on its arse! Nothing would make me vote Tory

This is for 2 children not one. There are lots of other families with 2 or more children around. Only a handful of families at our school are what I'd consider wealthy and would comfortably afford the VAT.

I am not sure where you got this from but if you check the tax calculator in Finland it shows you pay €33 451,46 on €100 000 salary - this is from the tax office website in Finland they have a calculator there. And for that you get the following and more . . . (this is similar to most nordic countries by the way) - The benefits of paying taxes are for everyone and not only those on low income, unlike the UK.

Free private school education

Free Nursery for lowest income parents, at up to 290 euros for highest earners.

Free University

Free health care - Although a visit to the doctor: The one-time payment is up to €20.90. You may be charged up to three times per calendar year. Low income individuals do not pay.

You can be reimbursed for medicines, clinical nutrients and emollient creams prescribed to you for the treatment of an illness.

Finland reimburses part of the costs for visits to a private doctor due to illness, pregnancy or child-birth. You can also receive reimbursement for remote consultations.

Finland pays reimbursement for part of the cost of oral and dental treatment provided by a dentist in private practice and for laboratory and X-ray examinations ordered by a dentist.

After a baby is born, the family visits a child health clinic (usually at the same place as the maternity clinic) at scheduled intervals to check on the child’s health and growth – eight times during the first year, four times each during the second and third years, and then once a year until the child starts school.

Mothers and fathers alike enjoy paid parental leave (320 days); certain amounts of time are reserved for the mother or the father, while either parent may use the remainder. Either parent would have the option of staying at home with her child, while receiving a stipend, until the baby is three years old

The paternity leave can last up to 54 working days or about 9 weeks.

Finland pays child home care allowance to the family, and the family can use the allowance to pay wages to the day care provider i.e. a nanny for example. A day care provider hired by a family that receives child home care allowance does not have to be approved by the municipality.
Finland can also pay the private day care allowance directly to the provider (separately for each child).

Maternity grant - The purpose of the maternity grant is to support the care of the child. You can choose to take the maternity grant either as

• a cash benefit
• a maternity package.

The maternity grant is free from tax.

Tax credits - you can claim tax credit for household expenses. For example
if some of the following work has been done at your home or holiday home:

• renovation of kitchen, bathroom and other rooms
• renovation of basement or sauna facilities in a detached house
• work relating to electricity, plumbing and cabling in a detached house
• painting of an outbuilding
• installation of security locks.

You can claim tax credit if some of the following work has been done at your home or holiday home:

• cleaning
• cooking
• laundering, ironing and garment care
• yard maintenance and gardening
• snow shovelling.

Unlike the uk, The child benefit is tax-free income. Property and income do not affect the amount of the child benefit.
For one child €94.88
For the second child €104.84
For the third child €133.79
For the fourth child €173.24
For the fifth and each additional child €192.69

Tax Credit for Electricity - If the total 4-month cost exceeds €2,000 you are entitled to the tax credit. The size of the credit is 60% of the part going over the 2,000-euro threshold.

ETC . . . I am not sure the UK could even compare. Here you pay high taxes you don't even get a fraction of the above.

@notthatthis Finland has a tax burden of 43% to GDP, UK is 33.5% its highest tax rate is higher than the UKs 45% too (UKs is set to increase to 37.7% in 3 years time)
Denmark, Sweden and Norway all significantly higher than ours too.

France has an even higher overall tax burden, the EU14 is higher too, Germany's is almost 40%

A big problem the UK has is a lack of investment, Europe has always had higher taxes, better investment, we have not kept pace, a lot of infrastructure here is old.

Your post is actually an excellent argument for higher taxes on the wealthy.

Rather than making assumptions - Vero Skatt is a Finnish Tax Administration have a look for yourself.
Tax percentage calculator it shows you pay €33 451,46 on €100 000 salary .

I lived in the nordic region for over a decade. You can also look at Income tax Skatteverket in Sweden.

https://nordisketax.net/pages/en-GB/taxation/?country=denmark&topic=tax-calculation-examples

The website above shows a good comparison. As a high earner when I lived there, my tax burden wasn't different from the UK - I also got a lot more for my money. My post above is a good argument for lower earner paying more into the system than they currently do like in Nordic Countries.