To expect my child to be taught by a teacher with a degree in that subject?

[northlundunmum]

My child is in year 8 and in their school
has “Humanities” which is history and geography combined rather than taught separately- not great in my view but ok. However, this year they are being taught by a music teacher. No doubt a very talented musician but according to my child they admit not being very good at teaching history or geography.

I do understand there are teacher shortages and sometimes some teachers will have to cover for others but this seems to be a permanent arrangement at least for this year.

Does anybody know what the DfE / Ofsted rules / guidance are on this? I understand you have to have a degree in a subject in order to train to teach it at secondary level (or at least used to) - does that not extend to actually teaching the subject in school?

Grateful for advice from anyone who knows the law / regulations here as want to approach the school about it and want to be clear what’s reasonable to expect and what they should in fact be doing according to govt policy.

Thank you!

You've a reasonable chance of a degree educated biologist.

My degree educated biologist relative is currently teaching maths, while biology is taught by a PE graduate!

She's very fed up, because the other teacher can't run practicals so she's doing that. Oh she's teaching Y7 music once a week because she can read music and teach them the instruments of an orchestra because she plays in one... (I think they only have a part time music teacher and couldn't timetable it any other way.)

Schools are definitely struggling at the moment.

I can't remember exactly what the qualification is but I know there are a few teachers at my dc secondary school who are qualified to teach their specialist subject to year 10 and 11 but can teach any subject to year 7-9.

I am a Primary teacher so teach history and Geography up to the end of Primary which in lreland would be year 8. I could easily progress to teaching either at Secondary level early years . I think it's the teaching bit that's important. I wouldn't take on Science as it never appealed to me but could do Maths too for a year or two. I know this as l have tutored kids and love Maths and especially love explaining it. . So the important thing is: can they teach and are they bringing the subjects alive? Some wizards at a subject are awful teachers.

responding to @C1N1C’s question “Would you (as parents) prefer a highly qualified person (e.g. a PhD) with zero teaching experience/qualifications... or someone like the OP mentioned, a qualified teacher with 'some' knowledge of the subject?”

I think teaching is a specialism that one needs to learn how to do well and continually improve in so personally would favour a qualified teacher over knowledge of the subject matter. However the key thing being taught at this stage (I think) is not the subject matter itself it’s the techniques used in the study of that subject. So an under of those are important and more transferable between some subjects than others. The techniques used in the study of history and geography for examples - defining a question, identifying and scrutinising evidence and information to help you answer the question and forming an argument/answer - are much more similar to studying science than music.

Have you looked at academic geographers do?

I say this as someone with a PhD in geography that gets the response ‘how is that geography?’ any time it comes up. Most of the geographers I know have similar experiences.

Then it is surely disingenuous to call your friend a “geography teacher” who teaches modern studies when the fact is that she is in fact a modern studies teacher who teaches modern studies.

OP from my experience with my son, Y8 is the year schools don't care about, and my ds is at university now, so the recruitment crisis wasn't so bad back then.

Y7 - trying to get the kids into good habits
Y9 - GCSEs looming, want kids to do their subjects so make more effort
Y10 and 11 - GCSE years

Y8 - doesn't matter so they get the cover teachers etc

Not right, but nothing new.

The music teacher might be better than s/he thinks, and maybe they've got an A level in history or geography.

I cannot tell you how many secondary school Maths teachers in my local area don't have a Maths degree. It's appalling. I am the only primary school teacher I know with a Maths degree.

Unfortunately, teaching is very low paid compared to many other jobs for which a Maths degree qualifies someone.

The techniques used in the study of history and geography for examples - defining a question, identifying and scrutinising evidence and information to help you answer the question and forming an argument/answer - are much more similar to studying science than music

Says who? Have you studied music yourself? I only did GCSE but I saw some of the things my university flatmates who studied music did, and the transferable skills were valuable. It's not just playing instruments.

Looks like Michael Gove has joined the chat. Only STEM subjects matter (and English).

"The techniques used in the study of history and geography for examples - defining a question, identifying and scrutinising evidence and information to help you answer the question and forming an argument/answer - are much more similar to studying science than music"

Hi OP, you wouldn't believe how well-rounded you have to be in order to do music even at A level let alone degree level.

When I did A level music, it was one of the few courses that still consisted of 6 modules. 2 components of the A level were concerned with being able to research, analyse, and contextualise music scores in relation to the lives and bibliographies of numerous composers and their historical context.

Your child's music teacher would have had to do extensive historical research on composers, performance practices, socio-political context of the composer's life, and on the instrument themselves. I guarantee that they have the skills to be able to teach 8th form history.

What they might not have is some specialist skills related to geography, but to be honest from what I remember from pre-GCSE geography half of it was cultural geography (which is easy to pick up for a reasonably intelligent adult), and the other half is learning about glaciers, water bodies and topology (which might be slightly more difficult for the teacher to pick up but not impossible). I don't remember having to do any data analysis or collection for geography or anything remotely sciencey for it.

Stop voting Tory. Listen to the many, many cries of teaches about the current state of education (and how it is only going to get worse). Shout loudly and make education an election issue that the powers that be are going to have to address.

Would you (as parents) prefer a highly qualified person (e.g. a PhD) with zero teaching experience/qualifications... or someone like the OP mentioned, a qualified teacher with 'some' knowledge of the subject?The reason I ask is because I've considered teaching in the past (PhD), but I would hate to go through further training. Given the teaching shortage, what are the mum's views?

FFS. Seriously. What mums want is a qualified professional with a degree in the subject they are teaching. It shouldn't be 'either/or'. It should always be both.

Why not go the whole hog and stick 18 year olds in front of classes?

YANBU but I know someone who didn't even have any science GCSE's at all - and has now been made head of science.

My mum is fuming! (ex teacher, now retired)

Well, society reaps what it sows, frankly.

Treat teachers like crap. Talk about teachers like crap. Pay teachers like crap. Expect teachers to make up for all the crappy parenting going on and waste time teaching skills past generations learned at home. Treat schools like crap (massively underfund them) leaving them without basic resources like books, pencils and glue sticks half the time. Try to get teachers to fund their own classroom resources when that happens. Cut support staff, leaving even more things that teachers need to sort. Mainstream children who need support without said support. Fail to support teachers when children behave terribly. Fail to support teachers when parents back their poorly behaved children. Blame teachers for poor student behaviour, even though the leadership teams don't have a solution or provide any support.

The list goes on.

Cue parents complaining that teachers are only in it for the long holidays and that their children's teachers aren't qualified to actually teach their subjects ... because they can't get anyone to do it any more.

Whenever our local schools list job openings, we essentially have to take what we can get, assuming anyone applies. Depressing as hell. I've lost count of the number of teachers and teaching assistants I know who have left schools behind entirely and now do other things.

ha, even at university you’re not always taught by somebody with a degree in that subject… (I was surprised to learn this!)

Also just to say, if you employ a tutor for your child, check they're qualifed. Most aren't. And those that are are say qualified for secondary and claiming it's ok to teach Year 6 maths. They know nothing about primary maths and the exam process at all. Or they're teaching GCSE History and have a primary teaching qualification!

You'd be amazed how many people think it's ok to teach something just because they got an A* in it!

I would as a parent prefer a highly qualified person.

I assume this is a state school - in which case YA being a bit U.

My DC is taking GCSEs this year. In one subject they had supply teachers up until Christmas and finally have a subject specialist. In another subject they have just lost their specialist teacher and have a non-specialist teacher instead. Both are humanities.

I considered retraining as a secondary teacher a while back and one of the reasons I didn't was that I would have to teach across chemistry, biology and physics ie. "sciences" rather than just my degree (and PhD) subject. I suspect humanities is going the same way.

A friend of mine is a teacher and does a lot of private tutoring too. She only actually teaches her degree subject some of the time. Currently teaching a science subject to an A level class (and really enjoying it) - not her degree subject. But she is a good and engaging educator and good at learning.

It surprises me that it’s news to lots of parents just how bad recruitment and retention is in teaching.

In lots of subjects, many many GCSE students are taught by non-specialists as schools can’t recruit or recruit and keep the staff. Of course it’s not as it should be……complain to your local MP and support campaigners who are pushing for better pay and conditions for teachers and crucially better funding for schools overall. It’s years and years of funding cuts and below inflation pay rises that have meant teaching is less and less attractive.

What I always wonder about, is how bad does it have to get for parents to be fully aware of it or to start to make a serious noise about it?

If you ask your kids, how many lessons a week do they have a supply or replacement teacher, or how often does their main teacher change, many would be surprised by he frequency. It’s just not a question parents ask very often so just don’t know. And it’s so common for most kids that they wouldn’t think to mention it. More and more classes are being ‘delivered’ by TAs ir cover supervisors who give out work set by a teacher….but they can’t explain the concepts, answer questions and adjust the tasks to meet the needs of the class as a teacher would. But that’s what kids are receiving. There’s little interaction and discussion with a qualified person. But people seem to be willing to let it happen. How bad will it get before people say they won’t stand for it?

(In Scotland at least) you need to do data gathering and analysis for geography. You also need to interpret fairly complex graphs such as hydrographs. You mention knowing about “water bodies” - you need to do the water cycle; which is taught in science also (but we go into more detail in geography as we also look at the human side of it)

Thanks @Bellaboo01 . As a PhD qualified subject specialist (and former university lecturer), I have been approached by private schools to teach - but would not be qualified to teach in a state secondary.

Having said that, I know that I wouldn't last 5 minutes in a state secondary as I doubt I would be able to control a class or deal with the range of abilities.

Ah interesting! My experience was in England 16 years ago so probably very outdated, can't remember seeing a single graph in pre-GCSE geography!

That is an unusually hard line and quite short-sighted, I’m sorry to say. There are many talented mathematicians who choose to study degrees with significant mathematical content but not purely maths. Your DD’s criterion is stricter than the PGCE admissions tutors at UCL and Cambridge!

Agree a degree in the subject being taught is ideal however some related degrees are definitely OK. During lockdown I listened to quite a few maths classes taught by someone with an economics degree. He was excellent both in content, style and group management (though I suppose this might be different when not online).
I don't think he teaches A level maths though.