To expect my child to be taught by a teacher with a degree in that subject?

[northlundunmum]

My child is in year 8 and in their school
has “Humanities” which is history and geography combined rather than taught separately- not great in my view but ok. However, this year they are being taught by a music teacher. No doubt a very talented musician but according to my child they admit not being very good at teaching history or geography.

I do understand there are teacher shortages and sometimes some teachers will have to cover for others but this seems to be a permanent arrangement at least for this year.

Does anybody know what the DfE / Ofsted rules / guidance are on this? I understand you have to have a degree in a subject in order to train to teach it at secondary level (or at least used to) - does that not extend to actually teaching the subject in school?

Grateful for advice from anyone who knows the law / regulations here as want to approach the school about it and want to be clear what’s reasonable to expect and what they should in fact be doing according to govt policy.

Thank you!

I'm a secondary teacher- there are no rules about it. I'm HoD and have had non-specialists teach my subject. It's my job to support them. Please contact your MP- there has been a recruitment and retention crisis for years, currently only about 50% of training places have been taken up. Younger teachers leave within 5 years, and there's a critical mass reaching retirement age. Be thankful they have a. qualified teacher in front of them, rather than a succession of supply.

In an ideal world then yes all subject teachers would have a degree in their subject. The reality is that teachers are overworked and underpaid and treated like shit by the government. Be grateful your kid has a teacher willing to teach the subject at all.

I don’t think it’s that important at year 8 tbh. Maybe A levels but even then surely as long as they know the exam syllabus it’s fine?

I’m in Scotland and my geography teacher friend mostly teaches modern studies and criminology now! She will also cover for history and RE but didn’t do either in school or uni.

my mother was a Maths teacher in the state sector for many years. She even taught in a young offenders institution at one stage and did not struggle to manage behaviour so I guess at least some of this is down to aptitude rather than being taught how to do it.

Mine was also a Maths teacher in the state sector but has a tendency to take things personally so didn't have as much luck with classroom behaviour. However, she went on teach excluded children 1:1 and reportedly got excellent results from them so appears to have had an excellent aptitude for some behavioural issues.

Interesting. At GCSE the Business teacher is an RE teacher. You say it only matters at A'level? Hmm. Not sure I agree.

The best history teacher I ever had was an out-of-work actor who had an English degree! He was absolutely brilliant, brought the subject to life by mimicking the figures he was teaching about (did a storming Richard III) and was miles better than our regular teacher. Though it's obviously not ideal as the subject gets more advanced, but for years 8 and 9 it's surely fine.

@VickyEadieofThigh -thats not true for PGCE courses but TeachFirst has slightly different requirements. Sadly specialism in Secondary schools has now waned for the many reasons people have cited. In my school m big Independent day school, all teachers have degrees, many doctorates, in the subjects they teach which is widening the inequality gap.

I think it would be best to have a qualified teacher with a degree in the subject they are teaching, I am sure it was the norm when I was at school but teaching is now famously one of the most least desired jobs. I was asked recently if I'd ever considered going into teaching and I just laughed, not because I don't respect teachers but honestly why would anyone choose to be put through the wringer like that!

@ExtremelyJoyous - it’s really not fine. V difficult to impart real love of a subject if all you know is the syllabus and the syllabus doesn’t tell you how to teach. Makes the focus on narrow box ticking exams all the greater.

You will find that in fact, your geography teacher friend is also a modern studies teacher. She has done this by gaining the perquisite university credits to apply to be a probationer teacher in modern studies; and then undertaking enough hours and observed lessons in modern studies to achieve full registration as a modern studies teacher.

The “teaching history and RE” is a red herring. She doesn’t actually teach them. She merely facilitates lessons planned by others in her free periods. She has no planning, marking etc to do.

Teachers are treated terribly and the pay is even worse. Kids are rude (sometimes violent), parents are demanding, headteachers are often unsupportive.

My mum was a talented maths teacher (with several maths degrees) and 30+ years of experience. She loved teaching but was treated badly throughout her career. Despite being severely disabled, she was expected to adhere to covid 'bubbles' with no reasonable adjustments made for her poor mobility. Expected to walk up and down a huge school, do stairs, etc. That was the last straw and she took early retirement as a result.

This situation is very common and is happening in most schools. My school has lots of people teaching outside their specialism. Some don’t even have a GCSE in the subject being taught let alone a degree. Eg technology teacher doing maths, language teacher doing RE and PE teacher doing Geography plus more. In my school it’s a consequence of having absolutely no money, but in other schools it’ll be because they just can’t find teachers.

I'm a head of science.

It's increasingly common for science teachers to have a degree in PE, sports science, or sports coaching.

Good luck finding any physics teachers with a degree in physics, or chemistry with a chemistry degree.
You've a reasonable chance of a degree educated biologist.

There's been a huge increase in the number of unqualified teachers in secondary schools, too.

There's now a lot of routes into teaching, meaning that, increasingly, teachers don't hold a PGCE, either.

It's a mess, alright.

My son is doing his GCSEs this year, he didn't have a science teacher all last year. I'd love for there to be specialist teachers for each subject but it appears as though it just isn't possible right now. By all means speak to the school but I would have thought they would be using specialist teachers, if they had them.

As long as they’re not teaching A Level and they have Geography A level I wouldn’t mind too much. I’d be annoyed though if they were an a level teacher without a degree in the subject. I agree though the teacher shouldn’t be admitting they’re not very good at teaching geography!

The work will be set by humanities teacher the teacher though I'm not sure about marking. When I was in year 8 we were often taught by a student teacher. We know the work was set by head of Humanities because he would often say Mr Jones has set this work for you.

YABU. Anyone can look at a syllabus and teach it, so if they're qualified to teach, it's fine.

I wouldn't even expect a subject specific degree at GCSE to be honest for subjects like that.

What do you mean by “subjects like that”?

Voted yabu as this happens all the time. My friend teachers the whole class alone at least once a week and she's just a TA with no qualifications at all. She hates it, it is not in her job description at all. Headteacher say she can put in a claim for more pay on the days she pretends to be a teacher.

Unfortunate but not very surprising. I know Hist/Geog/RE teachers in particular are commonly roped into teaching one another’s subjects

I assume the poster means a humanities subject that shares a lot of skills and where a history teacher might very well have a degree in politics or philosophy or a similar essay/humanities type subject.

Back in the 70s I was taught maths by teachers with no degree in the subject. Lack of qualified teachers is nothing new.

But geography is not an “essay type subject” - it’s actually very skills based; and often teachers of other subjects (be it humanities or elsewhere around the school) often struggle with these skills - such as using contour patterns to identify geographical features.
In terms of the content; I’d actually say a lot of geography sits best in the science faculty rather than the humanities faculty.

Yes I understand how it works.. thanks for the lecture though.

Why?

I'm really surprised that so many people are saying that OP is unreasonable, presumably because of the teacher shortage. Why do we accept that so meekly? Do we not feel that our country and our schools should be run in such a way that teaching is an attractive profession and good teachers don't leave?

You can bet that the likes of Sunak, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc were never taught by anyone other than teachers with degrees in the relevant subjects. Why should we accept lower standards from them for our children?