To expect my child to be taught by a teacher with a degree in that subject?

[northlundunmum]

My child is in year 8 and in their school
has “Humanities” which is history and geography combined rather than taught separately- not great in my view but ok. However, this year they are being taught by a music teacher. No doubt a very talented musician but according to my child they admit not being very good at teaching history or geography.

I do understand there are teacher shortages and sometimes some teachers will have to cover for others but this seems to be a permanent arrangement at least for this year.

Does anybody know what the DfE / Ofsted rules / guidance are on this? I understand you have to have a degree in a subject in order to train to teach it at secondary level (or at least used to) - does that not extend to actually teaching the subject in school?

Grateful for advice from anyone who knows the law / regulations here as want to approach the school about it and want to be clear what’s reasonable to expect and what they should in fact be doing according to govt policy.

Thank you!

They are short on language teachers as they've lost a few for compulsory language - so DD2 class in now 40 as 10 from another class were taken in.

DS had months of lesson in class of 60- lecture style in halls - as his class lost their English teacher and they were left 6 months without a permanent teacher and they were few months away from exams so another teacher agreed to take two classes - I was very grateful the teacher was prepared to do that and book halls and large rooms to accommodate - he got a decent grade and that teacher left end of that year.

So qualified teacher in right subjects can still be very stretched.

YANBU, but utterly unrealistic.

no rules prevent this, and schools are struggling just to have enough teachers.

Former teacher, I agree with you.

I was in top set in French in my school, we were given the German teacher for our two years of GCSE's. Our class barely scrapped a pass. He not only wasn't a French teacher, but he was an awful angry man, really aggressive. We sat terrified of him in our lessons.

Yes, I know there's a crisis, but that doesn't make this ok. Too many parents are accepting of this, and have no desire to stand up and fight for this, which of course is with the government, rather than the schools. The government have driven teachers away in their droves. They need to fix the mess.

She's very lucky to have that option.

It's also a rather rigid view. I heard a head of maths say, in the days when there were enough applicants for short-listing to be a thing, that he was going to look at the applications and weed out the ones without maths degrees. Immediately, three of his A-level maths teachers pointed out that they did not actually have maths degrees, and he realised that perhaps he should look a bit more carefully. They were all very able mathematicians and very competent A-level teachers.

Same in my DDs school, in yr8 too "humanities" this year being at least taught by a history teacher but they're doing geography & RE with same teacher so she won't have a degree in all subjects obviously. I do think it's a bit rubbish but also very usual, at yr 7/8 level I don't think a degree is necessary, A level would be enough.
In my DDs school they split humanities into the separate subjects in yr9 in preparation for GCSEs

There is a huge shortage of teachers. I don't blame anyone for leaving teaching or just choosing not to do it, either.

I teach adults so not quite the same but for context I started a couple of years ago.

I have a degree, a Master's and a diploma-the diploma is the one relevant to the subject I teach, not the degree(s).

I started teaching Level 5 BTEC-I only have a Level 4. I now teach Levels 2-5 in the same subject (degree equivalent is L4).

I don't even have a teaching qualification.

My ex (English lit) was regularly teaching Maths as a supply teacher. Absolutely horrifying as he couldn't do long divisions until I showed him how.

My GCSE Psychology class was taught by a PE who was bored and fancied giving it a go (his words, not mine). He spent numerous lessons telling us he couldn’t answer questions because he hadn’t gotten that far in the book yet. This was close to 20 years ago and things have only gotten worse in schools.

Honestly OP, you can try to complain to the school but I doubt you’ll get anywhere. Even having a qualified teacher isn’t a given anymore.

If my son had a kind teacher who liked him, he did much better in whatever the subject was, apart from maths. He was later diagnosed with discalulia but at school predictably just called lazy. He wasn’t the most academic child to put it politely, so his skills weren’t recognised at school. I would never ever have thought to question what degree any of his teachers had, and quite honestly wouldn’t have given a stuff. I just wanted someone, anyone, to recognise his qualities.

Ha! That would be lovely but the fact is that isn't how schools are now. My DS was taught computer science by some teachers who barely knew how to turn one on. Luckily he self taught as he is very talented with programming etc. State schools are a nightmare right now and I'm very thankful my kids are finished (well DD is at Uni but that's different).

I don't think you're unreasonable to want a subject specialist teaching your child. Unfortunately the state of education in this country is shocking currently and there is a huge recruitment and retention crisis. As PPs have said- be grateful your child has a permanent, qualified teacher....
At my school last week we were sent an unqualified teacher, with a degree in Mechanics for a long term supply contract for English.... Needless to say he isn't faring too well and neither are the kids. But what can we do other than ensure he doesn't teach KS4 or A level? There has to be a body in front of the class! It is depressing and sad for all involved. My own kids are in primary but I am so worried about what kind of quality their secondary education will be.

Gillian Keegan thinks we should be more grateful for the brilliant work the government does for state education. And Britain keeps voting for this standard of education

That might be true for England, but not for Scotland. (I agree - not necessarily relevant to this thread.)

However, in Scotland if a school cannot obtain a properly qualified teacher for a subject we are allowed to use a non-specialist until such time as we can find a subject specialist. (Certainly not ideal.) A specialist has to set the work for a non-specialist.

The rule here for secondary ed is that you are required to have a degree and that you must have studied your specialism at uni for at least two years. (You can also add to your qualifications later, via post-grad certificates.)

I'm qualified to teach three subjects - two that I studied at uni and one that I did as a post-grad.

‘You're lucky there's a teacher at all.’

You can’t be serious😂 yes OP. Be grateful that it’s not your child’s classmate who’s standing up to do the teaching!

In my secondary school in the mid-1970s we were taught history by a teacher who struggled to keep a chapter ahead in the textbook!

One of the most enthusiastic teachers I saw was one who had started teaching maths as a non-specialist on supply, and discovered a new love for the subject. She did a good job, and became a permanent member of staff. When they finally offered her a job teaching her own subject, she declined because she was loving the maths so much!

Whilst obviously in a subject like history it might be better if the teacher has a wider knowledge beyond the syllabus, (1) there's no guarantee a history specialist has actually spent any time studying that particular period of history, and (2) there is much to be said for "That's a really good question, and I don't know the answer. I'll do some research, and perhaps you could try googling it, and we'll come back to it next week."

My DH is Head of KS5 And was Lead Prac in Maths, now runs a successful Maths based company and is used to write the maths exams for GCSE and A Level, along with other exams for private school entrance. He has not got a Maths degree.

He is bloody good at Maths though. Probably better than your daughter at GCSE and A Level.

Holding a degree is VERY different to teaching it. I actually know few maths teachers with maths specific degrees.

This has been the reality in schools for so long that it is something of a surprise to find people just now realising that we have a crisis in teacher recruitment and retention. The humanities have never historically been shortage subjects but everything is these days.

Please remember this when you vote in this year's general election.

My son didn't have a teacher at all for one GCSE subject for pretty much the whole of year 10. He had the Head Teacher covering for half a term and, although it wasn't his subject, they learned quite a bit as he was a good and experienced teacher. The rest of the time it's been subs and cover teachers. He's now year 11 and has pretty much had to learn the syllabus via You Tube.

Everyone I know with a child in a secondary has a similar story.

As other's have said a good teacher should be able to teach year 8 without too much difficulty.

@C1N1C my son had a chemistry teacher who was stupidly qualified but a terrible teacher. Just couldn't get down to the level the year 10's needed unfortunately, nor did she have any idea how to control a class. This year he has a chemistry teacher who is a general science teacher but with 20+ years experience and he's learnt so much more.

why on earth would you need a degree in history/geography to teach Year 8???

Precisely, I trained to become a teacher and gosh it is a hard profession, I got the qualification and left and ended up in a much more lucrative and far less stressful career 🤷🏻‍♀️ saying that if teaching hadn’t been so endlessly stressful and if the teachers didn’t constantly seem to be struggling and trying to have a life etc I probably wouldn’t have been so keen to leave. We need to invest in social infrastructure but in reality I don’t think as a society we really want to, I think people just assume people in these roles do them out of the good of their own hearts but they are still people needing to live healthy lives and not being on the verge of a nervous breakdown whilst teaching future generations… I could go on and on here 😅gosh so glad I quit the profession so quickly writing this! Teaching the kids is the ‘easy’ bit and that’s not even easy but at least it’s enjoyable and rewarding but makes up about 30% of the role… Now breathe 🧘🏻‍♀️

Year 8 is hardly a high level YABU. This is far from uncommon.

How long has she been in the role?

Oh yeah I forgot we are all supposed to applaud her while schools are falling down, and they told no-one until a few days before the start of the academic year.

This with bells on! I was quite shocked when a traditionally Tory voting area said they’d be voting Labour as they were surprised that there was little investment in the local state schools, I mean no surprises there tbh…

To be fair though an A at A level is at least some knowledge of the subject. Whereas history,geography etc can be dropped by year 8/9 (whenever gcse options are chosen), so the teacher might have no additional experience in the subject than the pupils themselves (and would be 5-35 years out of date!) - in terms of knowledge (not teaching skills) would be equivalent to the students teaching each other, and less experience than year 10 students teaching the years below them!