To expect my child to be taught by a teacher with a degree in that subject?

[northlundunmum]

My child is in year 8 and in their school
has “Humanities” which is history and geography combined rather than taught separately- not great in my view but ok. However, this year they are being taught by a music teacher. No doubt a very talented musician but according to my child they admit not being very good at teaching history or geography.

I do understand there are teacher shortages and sometimes some teachers will have to cover for others but this seems to be a permanent arrangement at least for this year.

Does anybody know what the DfE / Ofsted rules / guidance are on this? I understand you have to have a degree in a subject in order to train to teach it at secondary level (or at least used to) - does that not extend to actually teaching the subject in school?

Grateful for advice from anyone who knows the law / regulations here as want to approach the school about it and want to be clear what’s reasonable to expect and what they should in fact be doing according to govt policy.

Thank you!

Yabu.

because many teachers have completely unrelated degrees and a PGCE. They have teaching skills and a curriculum to follow.

in a field where there are staff shortages I’d just be bloody relieved they’ve got a teacher. DD in Y4 is on her 6th teacher of this academic year!

It wasn’t when I did my degree in 09-13, nor was it about a year ago when I looked it up last. It’s because geography is far more varied and transferable than history.

For gcse and A level years I would expect teachers to hold a degree in that subject. For the first few years of secondary, I wouldn’t.

The thing is, you can expect what you like, but if they can't find a teacher, they can't find a teacher. It's not as if schools want to be putting non-subject specialists in front of classes. Why would they, unless they had no choice?

This (and others who posted about the string component of history in music) is very reassuring thank you!

No problem, although turns out my info on geography was woefully outdated 😅

Teaching wasn't a completely graduate profession in the 70s. You could go to Teacher Training college with 5 O Levels although some asked for a couple of A levels and end up with a CertEd as a teaching qualification. This had ended by about 1980 when you had to have either a degree plus PGCE or a BEd. It wasn't to do with a lack of teachers.

You don’t need a degree as in an undergrad degree to teach a subject. Eg plenty of English teachers have a degree in something like performing arts. Tbh I’ve worked in an academy where an Economics A level class were taught by a RE teacher so they prob won’t get an eyelid about KS3. In fact I’d bet money on it.

Just curious were teachers treated with more respect, and was it viewed as a more respected profession in the 70s? I’m amazed when I told people about my experience in teaching that they seemed to think I was ‘crazy’ and talking nonsense, then they seemed more concerned when I was getting more work in supply than I needed due to teachers being off with stress, not enough teachers available etc as they realised this wasn’t a made up issue. I think the media/establishment/government push quite a bad image of ‘lazy’ teachers and unfortunately I think it is generally believed by people until it’s too late and they see the issues 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thanks so much for all replies - helpful to read others experiences and perspectives.

The level of cynicism that this is just what it’s like now is deeply depressing.

I do think I’ll talk to the school - not to complain but to just to flag that as a parent I don’t feel this is ideal (recognising the constraints they have) - if they believe parents care about this issue it may prompt them to look again at what they can do with what they have. But do recognise they can’t magic up non-existent teachers.

not sure writing to my (Tory) MP at this point in the political cycle will make a blind bit of difference. Usually I’m all for a bit of political activism. If I get door stepped by the Labour hopeful though I will make a point of the teaching crisis being an issue I very much care about.

Also if it’s any reassurance my friend who has a degree in geography and masters in a related specialist geography field was in teaching for a few years but eventually left to go into a more lucrative and less stressful job… It’s a common theme…

The schools and teachers can only deal with what they have. They answer to the government essentially not to the kids and parents, the government is the issue.

I wasn't teaching in the 70s as I dropped out of Teacher Training college after a term. I dropped back in in 1981 and did a 4 year BEd specialising in 3 to 8 year olds. There were some difficult schools with difficult pupils in the 80s but I felt supported by school leaders and the workload was no where need was it was when I retired 10 years ago. The pointless paper work - planning every word you speak noted and differentiated in so many ways as if you can't do that in your head, staff meetings wasted devising missions statements for the school FFS, observations and formal assessments every 6 weeks for small children and so much more. From what I've heard it's even worse now than it was when I retired.

That was in response to @Blah12345678999

Thanks for sharing, really interesting to hear your experience and how things changed over time, I imagine it’s probably even worse now 😕

Thanks for sharing, really interesting to hear your experience and how things changed over time, I imagine it’s probably even worse now 😕

Yes, but I doubt the pp’s year 7 child is doing advanced calculus or trigonometry this year. The specialists will be needed higher up the school for the GCSE and A level cohorts.

Steady on, no, don't take it to your MP ffs!
Just contact the line manager of the teacher and say you feel they need some support content wise.
And whatever deficit in knowledge you think your child is shouldering, ask the school for some weblinks and get your child to read up on stuff based around the lesson title.

Of course the OP should take it to her MP if she wishes. It’s an election year. MPs and candidates should know how important this issue is to their constituents rather than banging on about Rwanda.

30+years ago, I was taught German very competently to GCSE level by a teacher with a degree in French. She didn't teach A-Level German, where they did insist on a teacher with a degree in German.

OP I would suggest you absolutely do write to your MP - that’s where the issue stems from! I’ve written to my MP several times about it. Headteachers are shouting from the roof tops too. Also look at the state the schools are in. We’ve had no heating for weeks and my students are sitting in coats, gloves and hats. There’s no funding for a boiler it seems. Write to ask how you can support them perhaps rather than pointing out what they already know?

@northlundunmum definitely go to your MP and tell them you think education is a priority. It’s shameful how we are running down the schools. I would add all the extra stuff around it like music service, sports facilities, libraries, youth centres too. Let alone housing and healthcare. Agree with @ThanksItHasPockets i have no idea how Sunak thinks Rwanda is the thing most voters have in mind. Or maybe he thinks it is an easy win.

I don't think you are unreasonable to expect this at all, but the reality in most secondary schools is that there aren't enough subject specialists to go around. Geography is a shortage subject, in particular.

There is no legal requirement for students to be taught by subject specialists. I do know a school which was slated by Ofsted for unstable staffing and lack of specialist teaching, but realistically the school already knew this was a problem. They didn't need Ofsted to tell them! What they did need was affordable housing available locally for ECTs etc (which didn't exist) and not to be in a vicious cycle of large numbers of vacancies which is in large part caused by government policy!

You can, of course, raise your concerns with the school, but it's unlikely they are doing this through choice. They are doing it because their budgets are squeezed and they can't recruit.

I would suggest writing to your MP and explaining the situation and asking what they are doing to help with the teacher shortage in your area.

The Government have no policy on this and are trying to pretend it's not a problem.

I think physics is now probably worse, but schools get around that by calling everyone a "teacher of science" so it's a bit easier to hide the fact that your school has no physics specialists.

In terms of maths, it's easy to say "We won't hire anyone without a maths degree", that doesn't mean (for example) PE teachers aren't filling gaps in the timetable etc.

I think you could probably find a school to take you on, but they could then pay you at the bottom of the unqualified teacher scale, which is under £21k. You'd still be expected to do everything an ECT is doing, without the support of an ECT program.

I get not wanting to spend another year training, but why would you want to put yourself in that position.

Depending on your subject, you might find a private school willing to pay you competitive wages, but academies and free schools are all about saving money.

Quite a lot of subjects are now taught at KS3 by non-specialists.

I am an English specialist but taught PE at KS3 and 4, French at KS3, History at KS3 and Art at KS4. Some were when I was a young teacher and some when I was Deputy Head and we just could not cover the curriculum.

It may be that the school has two KS3 Humanities classes they can not cover with their specialists- they will not employ another specialist teacher for that small amount of teaching. Or they may be short a whole teacher and unable to recruit so have put non-specialists into KS3 and non-exam classes. It's not ideal but there is no regulation about it. Most schools will look for a current member of staff who has the subject as a second teaching/degree subject or has an A level in it but it is often impossible to do that as the match of timetables/availability if staff is simply unworkable. They should, however, provide CPD and support for the member of staff and monitor their planning and delivery and the outcomes for the children to ensure it is satisfactory provision. I think it is reasonable for you to enquire what support/monitoring is taking place to ensure standards don't fall but you can't insist on a specialist.

Yep, schools are of course awash with spare physics grads who aren't desperately needed to teach physics. 🙄

Schools are lucky these days if they have one specialist physics teacher on the whole staff. IMO, they are harder to recruit than maths teachers.

In some schools I know, it's maths grads teaching physics A-level, rather than the other way around (which can be a problem if they don't have the technical knowledge to run practicals).

I agree people with engineering degrees could (and do) teach both, alongside DT, Engineering BTEC etc- but again, they're highly in demand and hard for many schools to recruit.