To push through new screen time limits

[Thewifefury]

My nearly 11 year old has high anxiety and uses screen time to hyperstimulate to avoid intrusive thoughts especially around bedtime, related to death. (His sister passed away aged 11 RTA- 7 years ago). It has got worse as he gets closer to her age. He is in therapy but he is very resistant to any changes to his schedule. (Currently screens off 11pm - no gaming after 9pm) but last night he was still awake at 1.30am and we have had a really bad weekend of him panicking all night and refusing sleep. We are all exhausted. We have tried to reduce his screen time before and it results in all of us being awake til 3/4am for nights on end as he rages, panics and has anxiety attacks. AIBU to force through this change despite the fall out for all of us (he is currently school refusing and screaming at me because I've said things need to change) and what times are your 11 years olds off screens/going to bed/falling asleep generally?

11pm for an 11 year old?! Mine are now teens and are in bed earlier than 11 most nights. When they were 11 they were in bed by 8.30 or earlier!

I really sympathise with your loss and your child’s anxiety but yes I think you need to hold fast with the boundaries and screen time limits. Involve him in the conversation, so he feels like you’re working together as a team to solve the problem. Explain how the current situation is damaging all of you and ask him what his ideas are for making changes. Start pushing back maybe half an hour earlier every other night or once/twice a week. Agree some other distraction that’s not stimulating like gaming/tv - maybe a board game or book/audiobook together.

I have nothing useful to say but I’m so sorry that both you and he are going through this x

I think this is something you need to discuss with his therapist. I don’t think just taking away his source of comfort is the best idea you need a sustainable way to make changes.

I think 9pm is a normal bedtime for an 11 year old. I would have no screens in the bedroom, no phone or gaming after 7, but would allow TV in the living room later.

This sounds really hard but your child needs you to set a boundary, I would sit down with them when they are calm and try to agree a way forward. Reading, audio books, board games, jigsaw puzzles, colouring, go out for an evening walk?

Yes, do tell an already traumatised 11yo that he's ruining everyone else's life too, that'll work. Tell me, where did you get your child psych qualifications from? 🙄

Speak to the therapist OP, this sounds so awful for all of you 💐

Oh my, how devastating for your family, so sorry for your loss.
Mine sometimes go to sleep (on a timer) with a calming radio station on which is something they have done since early childhood. They are not allowed devices or a TV in their bedrooms either.
Generally though, apart from TV there are no screens at or after dinner unless we all decide to play something on games console as a family.
They go to bed between 8.30 (week) and 10 (weekends) with a short time for reading if they can't settle.
Mine whilst having been through divorce have not had the trauma your family has and so I don't think that comparing the two is going to be much use. Also I have always been (probably overly) strict on device usage and I think it is harder to clamp down after they have already been allowed something, but I understand why you have allowed it.
Is it worth talking through with his therapist for ways to slowly change the situation?

My daughter is a wee bit older at 14. At 11 bedtime was 9 but she didn’t have to sleep. However screentime kicked in at 7.30 and even now at 14, during the week screentime goes on at 8.40. She doesn’t have a set bedtime but is usually in her room for 9 and asleep by 10.30

I’ve explained the reasons to her (she’s ND) and told her it’s non-negotiable.

i can’t advise re your son though. He sounds like he needs more professional support than MN can offer

could you point me to where I said “ruining everyone else’s life“? I’m sure the child, being 11, is already well aware that all of them being awake until the early hours in the morning is difficult for everyone- it won’t be news to him that it’s a problem 🙄

And telling him he's damaging everyone else is going to help? This isn't a simple case of setting boundaries. Tbh, I don't think the OP should've posted on MN about this because of idiotic, ignorant advice being given - yours being a fine example.

Dd is 10 and I’m trying to limit her iPad time to two hours weeknights ( she is at clubs a lot of nights so doesn’t always use this up anyway) and 3 hours at the weekend. I try and get her off the iPad by 8pm when she can have tv in the living room. Bedtime is 8:30-8:45 weeknights and 9:30 sat/ sun. She will mostly be asleep within half an hour of going up but occasionally will come back down with various stalling techniques but it’s rare for her to be awake beyond 10:30. She has a Yoto player in her room and she listens to stories and sometimes some guided meditation cards that she likes.
I think 11pm is very very late and you’re possibly dealing with over tiredness there. I do find the more screen time mine’s had the more giddy and hyper she gets when she comes off. I don’t enjoy weekends when she’s had a lot of screen time.
What time does he get up? He may need a total reset and that will take a bit of time to adjust.
I’m sorry you’ve had such a terrible time.

@Thewifefury I am so sorry for your loss and now the situation with your son. I have 2 children 3 years apart and the youngest one has always needed less sleep than the oldest. For me bedtimes are not a set time for a set age but based on can they get themselves out of bed in the morning in a good mood. Not everyone gets up at the same time on a school day so have they had enough sleep for their needs? Because of this the eldest used to lie to teen friends about his bedtime because it would be considered too early by their standards.

So on that note I would work out what is best for your son on how much sleep he needs. Can I ask why you wish to reduce his screen time? Mine had much more screen time than maybe is recommended. After all when they hit secondary school all their homework is online, research is online and lots of homework is typed up, printed out and stuck in their books. A 2 hour time limit on screen time whether computer and gaming or watching tv seems very unrealistic in today's society. I had 3 TV channels as a child, totally different ear. My children were home from secondary at 3.30pm, that is a long time before bedtime to fill. Also when home schooling during lockdown they were at their screens for the entire school day with the usual breaks for morning and lunch.

For us as a family it has depended on what their screen time is, ie youtube or gaming and whether their behaviour deteriorated afterwards. For some games they knew the game riled them up (Fortnite) so would swap and change to other games so as not to feel that way. My youngest is almost 18, they have had a lot of screen time but it has mostly been very positive. In all aspects he is a well rounded, polite, informed, helpful, chatty child.

I'm so sorry to hear that your family has experienced such tremendous loss and that your son is really suffering.

I wonder if gradually replacing the screen time with some low key, connecting time earlier in the evening with you (and/or your partner if you have one) might be soothing for your son? This might increase the likelihood of him becoming relaxed rather than wired.

What time does he wake in the morning? Do you think he is getting enough sleep most nights? If not, this can contribute to that wired, anxious state, physiologically.

I am no expert and don't know how intrusive thoughts work, but I do have lots of experience with anxiety in general.

I hope you and your family find something that improves things for him.

It's perfectly acceptable to explain to an 11 year old that his panic attacks are disturbing his and his families sleep and that you're going to work together on it.

The other poster said nothing about telling him he was ruining other peoples lives. There are plenty of tactful ways to have that conversation. You've said your piece, as hs he other poster, so please don't get into a back and forth row about it as it isnt helping OP.

For anyone being surprised at the late time, you realise OP would probably love her child to go to bed/sleep earlier?

OP I went the opposite way and allowed mine their screens. It was the only thing that kept them settled and regulated.

I have 2 autistic kids with sleep problems and there is no way either of them would have been in bed and asleep by 11. One had to go on melatonin for a few years, the other refused it. What we had was a general house bedtime where everything got switched off and anyone not in bed by them went to bed. I did allow phones though. It was the only way to keep them in bed and stand a chance of falling asleep.

One of them is an adult in uni now and has worked hard for a good sleep schedule. The other is mid teens and still uses their phone to watch a show when the house goes to bed. Without it they would be standing at the side of my bed.

I agree with @Sirzy though, you should discuss with his therapist.

People will be quick to judge those of us who don't follow the 'no screens' or 'early bedtime' advice but they are not the people who are raising children with complex needs/

As I said, he will already be aware that his keeping everyone up at night is difficult for the rest of his family - you seem to be ignoring that fact. Gently reminding him that it’s affecting people he cares about as well as himself might provide more incentive to try and resolve the bedtime issue. As for the rest of my advice about consistency, involving him in finding solutions, alternative pre-bedtime activities - none of it is idiotic or ignorant. If you disagree then so be it.

That sounds like a really tough situation to deal with. My 12 year old has to be off screens by 8pm and in bed by 9pm but she's neurotypical so much easier to enforce those kind of rules.

Does he do any sport? It helps if his body is physically tired from an activity. We allow some chess playing before dinner, but unless homework has not been completed, no screens are acceptable past roughly 7:30. Bed time is around around 9-9:30 -- household with two 12-year-olds. In the holidays, we will watch a film late on a projector though. I think you are completely right to want to change the habit, he needs another outlet.

This sounds incredibly hard for you all.
He sounds scared to go to sleep, does he have nightmares. It’s very common for people who’ve experienced traumatic events to experience this.

Definitely try to reduce screen time/ gaming( especially the intense games) Can you encourage him to do more exercise so he’s physically tired, swimming is a good one if he’d enjoy that. Maybe try a weekly rota to do after school/ evening meal, if that would be possible. For example 1 day a club/sport, 1 day a friend over, 1 day a family evening like a film on so on..
If his counselling isn’t working then is it worth trying someone else or something more specific for trauma?
I'm so sorry for your loss x

OP I have no expert advice on the screens issue. But I just wanted to say I am so so sorry to read that you lost your daughter. How utterly heartbreaking for you and devastating for your family. It sounds like you are doing a fantastic job at supporting your son while dealing with your own grief. X

I am so sorry that you lost your daughter. I am sorry that your son is struggling too.

I am not sure if EMDR is an option for children but I know adults it has helped. You may have to pay privately but I would check it out.

How is he if you sleep in his bed with him? Sleep is so important if I had to bed share with my child to stop or help nightmares I would. Tiredness won’t help anyone really. I’d encourage sport and take them up with him. I’d look at meditation, yoga etc - do it myself and get him involved.

when it’s daytime and he’s okay what does he say. Does he explain why he doesn’t want to sleep?

Have you read the body keeps the score?

This sounds so so tough for you and no amount of people with ND kids like me telling you our schedules is going to change how much harder your circumstances are.

I agree that professional advice would be helpful and while my gut says that he probably needs more sleep, that's super easy for me to say. The only thing that occurred to me was what other inputs, even as a short term replacement, he might tolerate? An audiobook, even the TV on across the room as a less intense/up close alternative? What is the post-9pm screen time currently?

Thank you this response really helped. We have just got to this place that is hard to move back from. I never made a conscious decision that his bedtime is11pm it's just where it has got to after months of complete refusal. When your child usually goes to bed 1am you'll take 11pm. His therapist had flagged neurotypical behaviours and he is very controlling of his environment (repeatedly shuts door 3 times to ensure he is alone) . His screens are his crutch and his safe place. He is resistant to sport or clubs, he is good at school (and just about holds it together) but describes break times as a nightmare because it's unstructured. He does do play dates, and we do board games and sometimes he will watch tv with us (very little though) but he often gets his switch /ipadand needs more than one thing happening. He has audible stories when it is time to settle down but he turns them up really loud to prevent sleep.

The word used was 'damaging'. Utterly inappropriate.

Could he be ND? High anxiety and resistant to change. Uses screens to soothe.

My Dd was like this. Diagnosed at 16

Hi Op my daughter is autistic and on melatonin and still not usually asleep until about 10 so I absolutely understand this situation (she is also hyper anxious at night)

I personally think screen use is something to be carefully considered even where there is major trauma/ anxiety/ Neurodiversity - just because the child finds it soothing we do still as parents (as you know yourself) have to avoid too much dependence.

We all know as adults it's soothign - I do it myself if I can't sleep, I sometimes watch shit videos as it's easier than dealing with my hyper mind - but in the long run it's not healthy

I think you should perservere - what can you swap for the screen in the last 2 hours before bed? Audio stories/music?

Could you work backwards and just try to get screen use cut off earlier - your son will be addicted to it in some form (as many adults are! so no need for anyone to judge)