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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To vaccinate newborn or not

714 replies

confusedaboutclothes · 10/01/2024 10:37

I know this is a very sensitive subject, but i’m asking please for FACTS only - I don’t want answers like ‘because the NHS recommends you to vaccinate your baby etc’

Id like to point out i’m not ‘anti vax’ as such, but covid really opened my eyes to researching vaccines etc i’ve done my own research on whether i should be vaccinating my newborn but it’s hard to find unbiased facts.

What I don’t like, is the pressure that is put on us to do as we’re told with our babies. I don’t like the constant reminders, the phone calls and the pressure to vaccinate - it all feels like a box ticking exercise not because the NHS are actually worried about my baby.

Please be kind, I really am confused about this and would love some different perspectives

OP posts:
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EvelynBeatrice · 10/01/2024 15:06

You just want the best for your child and given the deplorable character and judgement displayed by our politicians and many doctors all over the press, I don't blame you for the nervousness about trusting others generally.
All I can share is my own thought processes. I looked at statistics and so on and this cemented my preconception that immunisation is one of the greatest things invented for the human race. As my children didn't have any extraordinary risk factors, I didn't worry about baby vaccinations but was a bit concerned about the vaccine against cervical cancer for teenage girls first brought in when my eldest was in that age range. New and no track record at that time. Though I knew my way round statistics etc I'm no biochemist , but I checked with my lovely sister in law who is and she was a fan and had her own girls done, so that was good enough for me.
I believe there is a risk - yes- in extremely rare cases people are damaged by vaccines, but you have to look at greater likelihoods of benefit and the risk of and damage from the disease.

EvelynBeatrice · 10/01/2024 15:13

Sorry by vaccine against cervical cancer, I actually mean vaccine against HPV...

Sallyh87 · 10/01/2024 15:16

Doing your own research simply means googling things or watching videos. In the same vein, I just watched a documentary on Space X so I have researched space exploration?

In all seriousness, giving your child any medication can cause worry. The COVID vaccine caused me real concern, I have a history of blood clots and the vaccine made me incredibly sick. However, it was necessary.

If you want further confirmation than the NHS guiding you to do it. Read up on the effects of measles. This illness prior to vaccinations caused numerous childhood illnesses, resulted in blindness and deaths.

Likely your child would be okay with out vaccinations. However, we all sign a social contract in my opinion and are responsible for ensuring that there is no resurgence of these horrible illnesses.

SouthEastCoast · 10/01/2024 15:16

My dad had polio and a lifelong very visible handicap for the rest of his life. I would never not vaccinate against the main ones
flu and covid is another matter entirely

ElaineMBenes · 10/01/2024 15:18

MiddleagedBeachbum · 10/01/2024 14:30

I wouldn’t get my baby vaccinated

Why not?

justteanbiscuits · 10/01/2024 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Could you share a link to where to he refused to explain this?

Mojodojocasahaus · 10/01/2024 15:29

Well done op. You’re giving your baby the gift of a healthy start. Had DS vaccinated fully and it gives me peace of mind.

MissConductUS · 10/01/2024 15:42

justteanbiscuits · 10/01/2024 15:21

Could you share a link to where to he refused to explain this?

Here's what he actually said that led to the conclusion that he "refused to explain".

"He said: “We're not actually disclosing any of the details around any of the aspects of that agreement and specifically around the liability clauses."

His lawyers likely advised him that the liability details were better not publicized. The anti-vax crowd sees this as an admission that Pfizer was concealing some horrible secrets about the vaccine. Bonkers.

https://www.lep.co.uk/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-is-it-compulsory-what-are-the-side-effects-and-will-you-have-to-have-it-every-year-heres-everything-you-need-to-know-3058198

trainboundfornowhere · 10/01/2024 15:42

If you’re not sure about vaccines then read the death of Olivia Twenty Dahl the eldest child of author Roald Dahl and his first wife actress Patricia Neal. Olivia died aged 7 in 1962 from encephalitis caused by measles. There was no vaccine available when Olivia caught measles but her parents pushed the benefit of the vaccination when one finally did in the hope of stopping other families from suffering like they had.

00100001 · 10/01/2024 15:50

ElaineMBenes · 10/01/2024 15:18

Why not?

Because she's an idiot.

Probably thinks the earth is flat too.

justteanbiscuits · 10/01/2024 15:58

MissConductUS · 10/01/2024 15:42

Here's what he actually said that led to the conclusion that he "refused to explain".

"He said: “We're not actually disclosing any of the details around any of the aspects of that agreement and specifically around the liability clauses."

His lawyers likely advised him that the liability details were better not publicized. The anti-vax crowd sees this as an admission that Pfizer was concealing some horrible secrets about the vaccine. Bonkers.

https://www.lep.co.uk/health/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-is-it-compulsory-what-are-the-side-effects-and-will-you-have-to-have-it-every-year-heres-everything-you-need-to-know-3058198

Yes. Company leader is unable to share sensitive data. Why is it so hard for certain sections to understand this is business. They were probably unauthorised to share details by the government. Because they were confidential.

BertieBotts · 10/01/2024 15:58

You can spot some tactics of vaccine disinformation very easily - the most clear two to note are a reliance on emotional, personal stories rather than looking at wider data trends/stats, and the second is picking up on any random aspect that "sounds" scary and playing up that scary-sounding factor - you can spot these because as soon as you either consider the alternative or look at the wider picture they stop making any sense. They only sound scary taken out of context. A lot of antivax claims of this type directly contradict each other.

The emotional stories are used in a very manipulative way because when you are faced with someone's very real grief and trauma, what kind of unsympathetic arsehole would start questioning the facts of the situation? And of COURSE when you see someone grieving their child you would do anything that has even a chance of preventing that happening to you. The problem is that the stories are generally presented in a very misleading way as though a vaccine is somehow proven to be directly responsible for the problem, even though in the majority of cases it's not a proven link and in some cases it's even been ruled out by investigation. And as many of them are collected as possible so that if you are viewing this you start to feel like this is a really widespread issue affecting a large amount of people. It's a psychological trick because our brains aren't really set up to process massive numbers like the amount of people that we can have access to on large internet forums - you see this here on MN when people say "it seems like everyone earns £100k plus on here" "everyone on MN seems to have an autistic child" "loads of people on MN claim to have had a contraceptive failure - they must be lying". So if you see, say, 20 stories of something happening then it starts to feel like it's a common occurrence because if you think of something you personally know 20 people that it's happened to - that's something incredibly common. And our brains can't really tell the difference.

The "random scary aspect" is stuff like saying oh we should give single vaccines instead of several in one, why don't they do that, it would be better, surely it's dangerous to give loads at once??

It's illogical because:

If you think about it for just five seconds and imagine how many appointments you'd need just to get all the first year's vaccines (14, not counting boosters, combined into 6 different jabs) spaced apart the right amount of time, allowing for all the various rules about what's too early and what's too late and how many boosters etc - it would take you years to get through the initial course, GPs would have time for nothing except giving vaccinations 24/7 and how many kids would end up with partial protection because their parents got fed up with the inconvenience, the child became terrified of the doctor, records were lost or forgotten or not properly updated when they moved house - just the logistical and admin nightmare of getting all this right is absolutely ridiculous. They have enough trouble getting people to come for the appointments they currently recommend.

Also, would you rather have 6 injections or 1? Bearing in mind that the antivaxxers are supposedly scared of adjuvants in vaccines (6x as many of those), and everyone knows that the process of getting an injection is painful (6x as many of those) and the short-term, non-dangerous reaction such as fever, fatigue etc can be unpleasant (6x as many of those) and they claim that vaccines are a "trigger" for genetic factors (6x as many of those!)

Plus if it takes years to get a vaccine course which would usually be over in about four appointments, that's a lot of time children are just left, without the protection of the vaccine (though this is at least consistent with the antivax "logic" that it doesn't matter because the vaccines don't work, the illnesses aren't really dangerous and herd immunity is a myth 🤷‍♀️)

Lastly, the established evidence (as usual) shows the literal exact opposite of what is being claimed - the evidence for the safety and effectiveness of the combined ones are much stronger/better than any single ones that we have access to. AND if you especially want to, you can usually spread them out if there are singles available and/or if they are just singles given in the same appointment. So it's a complete non argument, is it unsafe to give several at once? No. And it's better to give several at once for reasons of convenience and getting the side effects over with at the same time.

Doesn't matter what it is, you can usually do the same process for any of the totally random, "this sounds scary" clickbait/gotcha type claims.

Happybunnytoday · 10/01/2024 16:06

Ann3347 · 10/01/2024 13:59

No you can not speed up the amount to time it was injected into the human trial volunteers and the time it was declared safe for the whole population. Drugs are tested for years and years before being approved to use in general pop. Because newly developed drugs can get 8 years into a trial and be found to be helping the heart condition it's being developed for but also causing cancer so that drug is then not put into use! It takes years to find side effects you can not speed it up.

You literally do not know what you’re talking about. Drugs in clinical trials aren’t given to people for years, usually it’s a set time eg weeks or months. However, trial starts when first patient is enrolled and ends when the last patient is enrolled, and yes this time can take years until the desired number of patient has been enrolled. Especially for rare diseases where certain diseases aren’t common so trialing a drug in sufficing amount of people can take a very long time.

I left academia few years ago and I now work in early and late stage clinical trials. So you don’t really understand trial design to insist trials have to take years. For COVID, patients were treated for five days, and there were approx 1500 patients enrolled in treatment arm. If they were enrolled fast, trial didn’t have to take years and so it took just over a year. It doesn’t mean corners were cut.

Happybunnytoday · 10/01/2024 16:08

justteanbiscuits · 10/01/2024 12:58

Can I marry you please? :)

Already married but I’m flattered 😁

Itsreallynotdifficult · 10/01/2024 16:10

100% vaccinate. These vaccines have been around for years saving lives, preventing diseases etc. never ending amount of research and facts to prove this. Agree in regards to the Covid vaccine though, we haven’t had it, it was rushed and absolutely not enough research and long term results to risk it

confusedaboutclothes · 10/01/2024 16:11

EvelynBeatrice · 10/01/2024 15:06

You just want the best for your child and given the deplorable character and judgement displayed by our politicians and many doctors all over the press, I don't blame you for the nervousness about trusting others generally.
All I can share is my own thought processes. I looked at statistics and so on and this cemented my preconception that immunisation is one of the greatest things invented for the human race. As my children didn't have any extraordinary risk factors, I didn't worry about baby vaccinations but was a bit concerned about the vaccine against cervical cancer for teenage girls first brought in when my eldest was in that age range. New and no track record at that time. Though I knew my way round statistics etc I'm no biochemist , but I checked with my lovely sister in law who is and she was a fan and had her own girls done, so that was good enough for me.
I believe there is a risk - yes- in extremely rare cases people are damaged by vaccines, but you have to look at greater likelihoods of benefit and the risk of and damage from the disease.

I think this has summed up exactly where my ‘alternative’ thinking has stemmed from.
The lack of uncertainty around the government and other things in the media has made me question things that I know usually I wouldn’t. From all the replies, benefits far outweigh any risks though, thank you

OP posts:
SherbetDips · 10/01/2024 16:11

vqccinations have wiped out a lot of deadly childhood diseases in the country.

I think it’s your responsibility as a parent to make your own choices tho. Stupid ones personally but yours the same.

paulhollywoodshairgel · 10/01/2024 16:19

My dad telling me about whole families being wiped out by measles, diphtheria and polio scared me as a kid. Also telling me when they invented the polio vaccine families queuing round the block to get it. There was no way I wouldn't get my kiddos vaccinated and gasp they've both had the covid vaccine. They save lives and eradicate illnesses.

TizerorFizz · 10/01/2024 16:23

If insufficient DC are vaccinated, no dc is covered - certainly for some vaccinations like MMR. It’s not just about your child, it’s about protecting all dc. I agree that if parents understood about measles, pregnant women getting German measles and the outcomes as well as other awful outcomes from childhood illness we would embrace vaccinations. As those who went through childhood illnesses did when vaccinations became available. They are a wonder of science,

Ann3347 · 10/01/2024 16:23

Happybunnytoday · 10/01/2024 16:06

You literally do not know what you’re talking about. Drugs in clinical trials aren’t given to people for years, usually it’s a set time eg weeks or months. However, trial starts when first patient is enrolled and ends when the last patient is enrolled, and yes this time can take years until the desired number of patient has been enrolled. Especially for rare diseases where certain diseases aren’t common so trialing a drug in sufficing amount of people can take a very long time.

I left academia few years ago and I now work in early and late stage clinical trials. So you don’t really understand trial design to insist trials have to take years. For COVID, patients were treated for five days, and there were approx 1500 patients enrolled in treatment arm. If they were enrolled fast, trial didn’t have to take years and so it took just over a year. It doesn’t mean corners were cut.

No offense but it only takes logic to know if a new drug has only been in a human for one year you cannot know the possible (long term) side effects.

AffableApple · 10/01/2024 16:24

Yeah so you say you want "facts". Then you dismiss the "NHS recommendations". You'd rather ask about on Mumsnet for opinions rather than deal in scientific evaluation leading to widely-researched recommendations. Here's a fact for you: If I hadn't had my babies vaccinated, if I brought mine near yours at a playgroup or restaurant or supermarket, and they got ill - with say measles - yours could die or have life-changing consequences. Good enough? (Mine could too, but you don't care about them.) YABVU.

justteanbiscuits · 10/01/2024 16:25

Ann3347 · 10/01/2024 16:23

No offense but it only takes logic to know if a new drug has only been in a human for one year you cannot know the possible (long term) side effects.

It also takes logic to understand that MRNA vaccine trials well predated Covid.

bobomomo · 10/01/2024 16:27

The diseases that are vaccinated against killed thousands of babies in Britain every year before vaccination, what's more is that they are still endemic in parts of the world so if you travel, or someone travels here from other parts of the globe your child is at risk.

The main early infant vaccinations are been around in different combinations since before I was born, the mmr (given at a year) is over 30 years old.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 10/01/2024 16:28

porridgeisbae · 10/01/2024 13:57

@confusedaboutclothes Some people had bad reactions/symptoms from the covid jab. I imagine negative consequences of the routine vaccines are far, far less common.

Exactly. Also, everyone was being vaccinated against covid in a very short period - so all the side effects happened together and made it seem like there were a lot more than there were.

Biochemist · 10/01/2024 16:30

Ann3347 · 10/01/2024 16:23

No offense but it only takes logic to know if a new drug has only been in a human for one year you cannot know the possible (long term) side effects.

But this is a complete misunderstanding of vaccines and immunology

Vaccines are not "drugs" and they're not "in a human" for any substantial period of time

For medications which are taken continually, there is the potential for long-term emerging side effects, because the drug is present within the body for this time.

For a vaccine, side effects can only emerge in the short or mid term (i.e., days to weeks). Your immune system produces a response and quickly degrades the antigen which is the active component of an innoculation.

It is biologically implausible for someone to suddenly have a side effects from a vaccine they had a year ago, which is why the world's scientists and clinicians are confident in the safety profiles of SARS-COV-2 vaccines*.

*not going to derail the thread but yes there are those using a dr/professor title who are making a career out being an anti- evidence based science contrarian, however it is easy to disprove their claims if you have the time/patience to follow them back

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