Page 19 | Sacked for using 'N' word

Horrace · 2024-01-08T22:08:49+00:00

I don't know how to copy link sorry but has anyone been following the story of the Lloyd's bank manager who was sacked for asking a relevant question in a so called anti racism training session by his employers but in his question he used the full 'N' word. His question I believe was how would he be expected to deal with black employees or customers speaking to each other using that word. The trainer was so offended by the word, she had to take 5 days off work. However, he got sacked. He has since been awarded £500,00 but no apology from Lloyd's and no job back. As far as we know, the ridiculous incompetent trainer is still employed. I am close to this story but afraid to say how. But will say that I'm losing sleep and furious more and more at this bank.

SammyScrounge · 09/01/2024 10:21

ShoePalaver · 09/01/2024 09:53

Words aren't in themselves racist, it's the intention. Having grown up on Enid blyton and in an entirely white area, I remember being surprised to find that Golliwogs were anything to do with black people or a racial slur as in the books they are just toys and there are good and bad ones. Robinson's jam were still giving them out well into the 90s. Similarly with the n word, it didn't come with any negative connotation in the EB books. Of course I understand that although reading these words won't make a child a racist, they need to be removed from kids books for the sake of any children, black or white, who do know the context behind the words. That is not in doubt. There's now increased awareness and we are getting a lot of influence from the US via the internet and if course there's no going back now we know what we know. But still, removal of these words does not stop the underlying intention and prejudice. We have huge problems in this country with the racist nature of our police force for example. In the US it's far worse with white police officers still killing innocent black people with impunity. Banning certain words does absolutely nothing to improve this and probably just distracts attention away from doing something more useful.

You ll be delighted by the Edinburgh school which has banned 'To Kill A Mockingbird' because of the word-that-does-not-speak -its -name.
Bit of an own goal, I'd have said.

Bibisitsnow · 09/01/2024 10:23

‘Yes he was dyslexic’

As far as I’m aware being dyslexic means you have issues with reading and writing - not ‘it’s okay to use racist words that even a child knows isn’t alright’

AIstolemylunch · 09/01/2024 10:24

I think if asked to clarify many people would say the word in full actually. They probably should know better, if in their sixties, and I would certainly refer to them with euphemisms, N word, C word, P word etc, but I honestly think many adults today wouldn't. And what about when the teenagers that use/hear these words on a daily basis are on training courses in 10 years time? Will they know to censor themselves?

Inthebitterend · 09/01/2024 10:30

Jungleballs · 09/01/2024 09:40

I think there needs to be a cultural reassertion of the fact that critical race theory is a theory, not a fact. Not everyone agrees with it and if you believe in pluralistic democracy you will applaud that. If you believe in totalitarianism that’s a separate discussion. So:

I don’t agree in a hierarchy of oppression. I don’t think him being a white man means we can make assumptions about his life experience or that he is fair game for sneering.
I don’t think there is a clear hierarchy of offensiveness with the word in question at the top of the tree. Clearly it is offensive, but it is not a magical incantation that does something if said in full (as a pp said, like Voldemort!)
I don’t agree that the perception of the hearer is more important than the intent of the sayer.
Any word should be sayable: we’re not children or puritans, if we’re talking about how a word is used we should be able to say the word. Saying ‘the n-word’ is literally virtue signalling. We all know what the word is but in not using it I am signalling that I understand it is offensive. Virtue signalling should not be compelled if you believe in free speech.
Clearly context is important: if I’m invited to training on anti-racism, I expect a discussion of terminology. I don’t expect to be invited to training and then told I have to agree with everything with no questions or discussion. That is totalitarian.

For the people saying ‘why would you need to use it?’ My answer is that I don’t think any word should ever be absolutely banned in a democracy. This means context matters.

I'm sorry, does anyone need training to know you shouldn't say words like that, especially in a work place? Discussion on terminology is one thing but do grown adults need to discuss the minutiae of these words, like it isn't basic social knowledge to just ... not say it? It isn't virtue signalling to not use slurs, it's just basic kindness. No one needs to use a degrading word to talk about anyone, regardless of how you feel about "democracy".

Also talking about "free speech" is such crap - you can say whatever you want, sure, but you're not free from the consequences of those words. If I stood up in my office and shouted a slur, sure I am free to do that, but I'd expect to be fired. I'm free to go into Tesco and yell, "cunt!" at the top of my lungs, but I'd expect to be kicked out. I'm free to use other slurs in discussions with my friends, but I'd expect them to not want to spend time with me anymore and think I'm a shitty person.

I don't understand why some people fight so hard for their right to say shitty things. It's so easy to just not do it.

MCOut · 09/01/2024 10:32

2024GarlicCloves · 09/01/2024 06:16

I think there are some Jews and others who would disagree with your assessment of "literally the most offensive word". Many others, in fact.

If you're going down the route of banning offensive words on grounds of historical meaning, do you think it might be culturally insensitive to set up a hierarchy of offensiveness?

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I was wondering when somebody was going to try using this very convenient, hierarchy of racism, bullshit. Anti-black racism being, taken so seriously by everybody in society that we enjoy one of the best standards of living by ethnicity… oh wait

I love how theories must always be evidence based, unless they benefit white people.

AnonnyMouseDave · 09/01/2024 10:36

nocoolnamesleft · 08/01/2024 22:12

Honestly? White people using the full N word, whilst whinging that they're only using it because some black people are using it, are generally unpleasant racists. There may be exceptions to this. I just haven't met one.

I don't see why "the N word" is so much less offensive than the full word. I know exactly what word you are referring to and I need 5 days off work thanks to you.

I don't think that it does racial harmony any good to have words that some people can use as freely as "mate" and others get executed if they so much as whisper in a context of a discussion about the word itself!

I think that white people using the word in appropriate contexts should be more acceptable, and that black people who genuinely want greater harmony might consider using it less often.

DocOck · 09/01/2024 10:38

Notimeforaname · 08/01/2024 22:15

Taking 5 days off because someone used an offensive word in a question about how to deal with an offensive word, is fucking insane 🤣

That was my first thought. What a bloody world we live in these days.

SquirrelSoShiny · 09/01/2024 10:39

The problem with hostile training is that it takes people who are at heart allies and turns them into . I actually observed this play out at training over twenty years ago and I've never forgotten it because it was a masterclass in 'How to turn hundreds of people against you because you are angry at people (outside this room) who have hurt you.'

shreddednips · 09/01/2024 10:46

Bibisitsnow · 09/01/2024 10:23

‘Yes he was dyslexic’

As far as I’m aware being dyslexic means you have issues with reading and writing - not ‘it’s okay to use racist words that even a child knows isn’t alright’

The opinion of the expert who assessed him was that his dyslexia caused such significant difficulties with verbally expressing complex ideas in his particular case that it may cause him to not censor his language appropriately when attempting to rephrase a question. The judgement contains the assessment of the specialist- I think their explanation was along the lines that rephrasing the question required substantially more effort for this man than it would for someone who wasn't impacted by dyslexia in the precise way he was, and he may not have had the mental resources available at that moment to work out how to rephrase AND censor his language (I'm paraphrasing).

This was supported by his representative, who was also his line manager, who was the first person to raise whether his dyslexia could have contributed to the incident as he'd witnessed how the man's disability had impacted his verbal communication over several years.

I didn't know that dyslexia could impact verbal communication to this degree, so I was interested to learn this while reading the judgement. He absolutely shouldn't have used the word, but I can see why the tribunal felt that an alternative sanction, such as a warning and further training, would have been more appropriate in this very specific circumstance.

Of course, his comments about being 'the bottom of the pile' do him zero favours after the fact. From reading the tribunal, it seems that he has experienced discrimination over the course of his life due to his disability, as he describes people making negative assumptions about his intelligence because of his dyslexia- but not because of being a middle-aged white man.

Carpediemmakeitcount · 09/01/2024 10:48

AnonnyMouseDave · 09/01/2024 10:36

I don't see why "the N word" is so much less offensive than the full word. I know exactly what word you are referring to and I need 5 days off work thanks to you.

I don't think that it does racial harmony any good to have words that some people can use as freely as "mate" and others get executed if they so much as whisper in a context of a discussion about the word itself!

I think that white people using the word in appropriate contexts should be more acceptable, and that black people who genuinely want greater harmony might consider using it less often.

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I grew up in North London and the only words that I have heard is bruv, cuz or wagwan never the n word. My daughter had to endure abusive language from a white woman at work who was using the n word. In England it's mainly white people that feel they can use it. African Americans use it mainly not all but some do use it.

britneyisnotokay · 09/01/2024 10:49

@Carpediemmakeitcount I too am from north London and agree

britneyisnotokay · 09/01/2024 10:50

@AnonnyMouseDave no it's not acceptable and it never should be.

I can't believe the number of mugs on this thread. Even the outlets that are publishing it seem to be for a certain demographic

Ladybughello · 09/01/2024 10:52

Horrace · 09/01/2024 08:40

Because all it does is call out our differences under the guise of us all being equal.
It the same with training on religious beliefs, sexuality, gender or whatever they come up with.
We are all the same/equal/bring your whole self to work. Unless we say otherwise.
In reality, these courses and constant conversations are just reminders that we are all individual and shouldn't be pigeonholed. We are all different. And that's ok.
If anyone dares to use critical thinking, question anything, you are reported. So in reality, you absolutely cannot bring your whole self to work.

But also, it's a bank. We just want to get on with our work. It's numbers. Let's get on with our work.

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I don’t see any evidence in your response that Lloyds bank EDI training content is “racist”, OP. Rather a strong claim!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 09/01/2024 10:55

MyCatWoofs · 08/01/2024 23:16

If this is true it changes things considerably, since to suggest such a trainer didn't know what the n word means and needed clarification is clearly ridiculous

No, according to the articles, he never tried to describe it as ‘the N word’. He first described it as an ‘offensive word’. Then he said it in full when asked which word. His answer clearly should have been ‘the N word’, not the word in full.

Ah, fair enough - after all "the n word" is what practically everyone uses if they have to refer to it at all - but at least he had a go at avoiding using the word, and having been involved with many such trainers I still have to wonder what the aim was in pushing it

As ever we'd need to have been there to get the full context, including why 5 days' absence might have been considered an appropriate response

Cavityhole · 09/01/2024 10:59

HoneyNuts · 09/01/2024 10:14

Accusing people of ‘crying racism’ is objectionable behaviour. Usually done by people who have little experience of being a black person with direct experience of racism. It minimises victims’ experiences.

Now you go.

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Not one person has been racist, on this thread, yet they are told they are. When people are being racist, according to its legal definition, then is the time to call it. So yes, you're race baiting. You're seeing something you want to see.

IncognitoIsMyFavouriteWord · 09/01/2024 11:00

SquirrelSoShiny · 09/01/2024 10:06

The trainer was apparently the one who pushed him into using it.

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If this is the case, the trainer should be sacked, too, but no one would push me into using the word.

GrammarTeacher · 09/01/2024 11:02

MrsJellybee · 09/01/2024 07:44

That said, I've managed to get to 45 without once saying the N word, not once. Not by accident, not on purpose, not 'started to then stopped myself'. Not. Once.

You’ve never taught ‘Of Mice and Men’ to Year 10 then.

I'm 45. I have taught OMAM. Still don't say the word and never have. Nor is it in my class room. We can discuss it and read it without saying it aloud!

Cavityhole · 09/01/2024 11:02

Maybe if society, as a whole, called for the word to disappear from existence, that would help. In fact, anybody using the word, no matter what their heritage, should be reprimanded. Its as though others are expected to put up and shut when it's said in their earshot, unless it's said by a white person. You're being disingenuous to say you are, rightly, offended by it, and then have provisos as to when it is acceptable to be used.
In any case, this man, was rightly compensated. For once, the race baiting was corrected.

TheLittleDuckWhoRoared · 09/01/2024 11:04

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No it isn't. The Spanish word for black is Negra or Negro. In other countries that's a very old fashioned and offensive word for a black person, but you know full well that's not the word people are referring to when they say "the N word".

The "N word" is the word that rhymes with Tigger. Anyone claiming otherwise is just being goady.

RafaistheKingofClay · 09/01/2024 11:07

shreddednips · 09/01/2024 10:46

The opinion of the expert who assessed him was that his dyslexia caused such significant difficulties with verbally expressing complex ideas in his particular case that it may cause him to not censor his language appropriately when attempting to rephrase a question. The judgement contains the assessment of the specialist- I think their explanation was along the lines that rephrasing the question required substantially more effort for this man than it would for someone who wasn't impacted by dyslexia in the precise way he was, and he may not have had the mental resources available at that moment to work out how to rephrase AND censor his language (I'm paraphrasing).

This was supported by his representative, who was also his line manager, who was the first person to raise whether his dyslexia could have contributed to the incident as he'd witnessed how the man's disability had impacted his verbal communication over several years.

I didn't know that dyslexia could impact verbal communication to this degree, so I was interested to learn this while reading the judgement. He absolutely shouldn't have used the word, but I can see why the tribunal felt that an alternative sanction, such as a warning and further training, would have been more appropriate in this very specific circumstance.

Of course, his comments about being 'the bottom of the pile' do him zero favours after the fact. From reading the tribunal, it seems that he has experienced discrimination over the course of his life due to his disability, as he describes people making negative assumptions about his intelligence because of his dyslexia- but not because of being a middle-aged white man.

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I think it’s important to add that this wasn’t an independent expert. It was one provided by the claimant and not agreed in advance by the respondent or the tribunal.

And even the tribunal didn’t agree that the word used in this context was appropriate. It was reasonable to consider it misconduct but not gross misconduct. Consequently he shouldn’t have been fired for it.

WeeJimmycranky · 09/01/2024 11:10

Anansisu · 09/01/2024 09:32

The DEI DVD we were all issued at work once with had an error in the subtitles that meant where a worker was describing themselves as a "bit of a mongrel" due to having a mixed ethnic origin, the word used in the subtitles was the old and now discredited term for people with Downs syndrome

You can say Mongol - that's the correct term for people from Mongolia.

Not in that context it wasn't.

VolvoFan · 09/01/2024 11:15

TheLittleDuckWhoRoared · 09/01/2024 11:04

No it isn't. The Spanish word for black is Negra or Negro. In other countries that's a very old fashioned and offensive word for a black person, but you know full well that's not the word people are referring to when they say "the N word".

The "N word" is the word that rhymes with Tigger. Anyone claiming otherwise is just being goady.

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Where do you think the n-word derives from?

TheLittleDuckWhoRoared · 09/01/2024 11:16

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OneTC · 09/01/2024 11:19

Going by everything else he's said he's a horrible c* and I imagine he was trying to be offensive.

Anansisu · 09/01/2024 11:23

WeeJimmycranky · 09/01/2024 11:10

Not in that context it wasn't.

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The context of that typo?