Sacked for using 'N' word

[Horrace]

I don't know how to copy link sorry but has anyone been following the story of the Lloyd's bank manager who was sacked for asking a relevant question in a so called anti racism training session by his employers but in his question he used the full 'N' word.
His question I believe was how would he be expected to deal with black employees or customers speaking to each other using that word.
The trainer was so offended by the word, she had to take 5 days off work. However, he got sacked.
He has since been awarded £500,00 but no apology from Lloyd's and no job back.
As far as we know, the ridiculous incompetent trainer is still employed.

I am close to this story but afraid to say how.
But will say that I'm losing sleep and furious more and more at this bank.

He's in a backoffice support office function in a massive company on £50K at nearly 60. He's not an Important Powerful Man lol. The trainer likely makes more than him.

This is really beyond belief. I would encourage people not to attend these trainings. Hopefully they are not compulsory.

having read a few more of the links.

The trainer seems incompetent. You can't say "safe space to make mistakes" then faint like a Victorian maiden aunt at explicit use of the n-word.

The question - may have been disingenuous, it may have been a senior staff member asking about situations that have happened in his branch, so that the younger staff members on the training are already pre-warned how to react? (that's a generous take on it, tbf). So if there are a couple of young black men in the queue who are bantzing around with each other, get a bit loud and one uses the n-word to the other? What are staff to do (given Lloyds bank's zero tolerance policy). Well a normal person would get a senior staff member to go over and ask them to keep their voices down please, and not draw attention to themselves or the language used. Maybe younger staff members need to hear someone say that? (given the young people i see on twitter, it is not beyond the bounds of possiblity that a young staff member hearing such bantz might also have to take a week off for having their delicate ears so sullied?)

The trainer should have quickly understood the scenario in various ways:

• is this person asking a genuine question?
• do i know what n-word might mean? what might it mean?
• do i need to get this person to clarify?
• could this be a good teaching moment for the staff - if faced with this scenario?
• could this be a good teaching moment for the trainees about how to report such incidents?
• do i need to make a note of this in my post training report to Lloyds and my employees?

Given what some of the staff said about the way the trainer handled this, i think it was a bit of a perfect storm. Maybe the trainer was goading the bank manager chap having recognised him as the kind of person she could provoke? Maybe the bank manager chap is a fucking racist shit just champing at the bit to use A Word That Offends?

I think the tribunal outcome is good. Except for Lloyds. The training company might want to review their processes. I'd suggest always having 2 trainers, one with more experience, to do these training sessions.

He clearly did get worse treatment than was reasonable hence why he’s got a cool half a million for his troubles. I hope he enjoys spending every single penny of it while his ex-colleagues continue the daily grind in their toxic workplace.

He and his friends believe that white middle aged men are at the bottom for everything. We all know that is total bollocks and that anyone who believes that has problematic views.

They actually think that they do worse on the whole than black women. what a fucking joke! Again, what sort of people do you think believe that? And say that?

well quite. But if your job is DEI trainer i would assume you have been trained in what words (with the ACTUAL words, to avoid ambiguity) and the euphamisms are?

Exactly @sprigatito £1m in compensation. Not a penny more than he deserved for being treated so appallingly.

Have you done this course? Are you an expert in it? And do you work for this bank?

I love the semantics in here... people saying he should have spelled it out or called it the n-word.

It's not Voldemort! Everyone knows what the word is whether you spell it, abbreviate it or say it! That 'translation' of what it is/means is going to happen in your head regardless.

Exactly! As soon as I saw the title, the word was in my head in its full form.

So why the trainer needed to take five days off work, I don't know!

Saying white middle-aged men are “bottom of the pile” is all the proof you need that his use of a racist term wasn’t one off. A lot of people are absolutely chomping at the bit to use that word.

Also all the posters acting like “it’s just a word!” like people on here don’t go into meltdown when someone uses Karen or TERF.

It does seem a big payout, but he may have lost his work pension if he has been sacked.

Of course the anti racism trainer knows what the N word is! They wilfully engineered the situation by purposefully baiting him by pleading ignorance so that he had to say it in full to explain himself. This is a man with poor social skills in at least certain situations by the sounds of things. People are wrongfully taking exception to him because he’s a middle aged white man. Thats also racially profiling someone and discriminating against him. The trainer claiming not to know is like Lloyds pretending not to know the meaning of the word money by comparison. To have the capacity to be able to train somebody in something is to already possess the knowledge yourself in order to teach others. They knew as clear as day what the N word is. How many of us know what the term “The N word” means and how many of us are qualified to train in recognising and dealing with racism? Most of us by the former and very few by the latter, I’ll wager. The trainer claimed to “not know” so that they could kick up a huge fuss after demanding clarification knowing he would then have to say it. The 5 days in bed is such a pathetic nuclear over-reaction it really speaks volumes for this “trainers” character. Racist behaviour causes damage to peoples lives every day. The word itself stems from the most harrowing and appalling acts of slavery in history. For this trainer to monopolise on these experiences and undermine them by using it as an excuse to get time off from their employer is absolutely disgusting. No one with any self respect or common decency would make such a mockery and a show of themselves otherwise. They should be disciplined and feel the full force of their own shame. Manipulating this situation in full to their own advantage off the back of suffering of others is gross misconduct imo. The tribunal clearly saw straight through this chancer and that was why the claim was upheld.

@C1N1C You still don’t say it, as I’m sure you’re well aware. Not surprised to see you saying what you have here though. 🙄

that's what i mean. It is fine for attendees of the course to not know what the c-word, the n-word etc are.

As a DEI trainer? it is totally unacceptable. And if i were the company using that trainer's company? I would be a) asking for all my money back and compensation for time wasted (because their trainers don't know their subject and b) looking for a competent training company who do know what all the things mean

Again: I don't think it is necessary in any context - but especially as a white person - to use the n-word.

But i worry that other people, knowing what the trainer said at the start of that session (safe space, don't worry about making mistakes) who go on EDI training will now just switch off, nod, smile, give the textbook answers and just accept the certificate for having "done the training" without doing any such thing. Because, tedious as it is, these training sessions often throw up useful snippets (even if it is: beware, your company is totally captured watch your words)

@CwmYoy white people not being offended by the term, much as (white) teachers in the same period thought it was just fine to call their black students “jungle bunnies” doesn’t magically mean it was inoffensive 🤦‍♀️ The UK had an entire Empire full of black people it oppressed, abused & at some points enslaved - & it required legislation throughout the 1960s & 1970s (obviously said legislation only applied in GB as NI had own Parliament) to ensure black people wouldn’t be denied employment, housing, goods & services. Your man who thinks he’s suffered terribly because he’s a white man? Bit Enoch Powell-y that, & certainly precious.

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I don’t think he should have been dismissed, but disciplinary action should have been taken. His original question was vague & it’s no wonder the trainer was furious - “getting things wrong” means (for example) saying “coloured” or “half-caste” instead of “black” or “mixed race/heritage”. Not coming out with a word that’s been universally understood to be unacceptable for decades - even racists know it’s not considered ok, they just don’t care. Alarming that his colleagues hadn’t the wit, while being shocked at his using the word, to think that it clearly fell without the parameters of the expected errors in their “safe space”.

As for his claim it was due to his dyslexia… I’d love to read the medical evidence that was provided. Because I suspect the reason that Lloyd’s considered appealing (then decided against) was that he could not, in fact, evidence any such thing; but - rightly - with [certain] disabilities, Tribunals will err on the side of caution. So if I worked with him & right after he said that had a focal seizure that made it look like I’d just smacked him one - or several if he didn’t shift - & they fired me for thumping the racist (leaving aside the fact I’d do myself more damage) I’d be able to bring a disability discrimination claim because I have focal seizures (etc etc blah) even though it’s also true my uncle is black. Proving that he was able NOT to say the n-word = effectively impossible. It’s vanishingly unlikely that dyslexia did, in fact, force him to blurt out a word he knows to be so grossly offensive he’s not allowed to say it & he (allegedly 🤨) desired guidance on what to do should he overhear it being used by black people in the workplace. Zero sympathy for Mr “It’s So Hard Being Part Of One Of The Most Privileged Groups In British Society”. Foolish of Lloyd’s not to change their minds on his appeal though: they should have realised which way a tribunal would go.

"All those poor white men getting worse treatment everywhere than, for example, black women"

A white make is far less likely to encounter bad treatment than a black woman. That does not mean that when they do receive unfair treatment (especially with significant material consequences like losing your job), they should not complain or seek recompense when they do.

Everyone should be treated fairly, and with dignity and respect. I don't think we should call it a privilege to go through life being afforded this. I think it's a basic right. I think the ideal position is for everyone to have these rights without having to defend them or feel bad for having them.

I think everyone should also take responsibility for ensuring others have these rights too. This involves understanding the issues and taking an active stance in ensuring they aren't contributing to the problem, and even better, taking proactive action to bring about equality.

The concept of 'privilege' when applied to the above is, in my view, a hindrance not a help. Those who insist it is helpful often are not good poster girls/boys for their cause. Providing limited reasonable discussion, providing very limited understanding of the opposing view, and instead dismiss everything as racist or invalid as they are coming from a white personal without lived experienced of racism.

‘Honestly? White people using the full N word, whilst whinging that they're only using it because some black people are using it, are generally unpleasant racists. There may be exceptions to this. I just haven't met one.’

This. It is all about contest, and tone etc and now he’s half a mill quid up and being quoted as saying that ‘white middle aged men’ like him are at the ‘bottom’ of everything.
I get the feeling he didn’t want to go in the training in the first place and was trying to be a clever bugger but it bit hi. In the arse.

In my industry white middle class men are at the TOP of everything and we work with a lot of banks and financial institutions where white MC and posh white men are most definitely at the top of everything.

This guy sounds like a dick, even if Lloyds did overreach by sacking him.

This isn’t ageism, HTH.

Tbh he should be sacked. Why did he need to say the word? Why couldn’t he say ‘how should I respond if my black colleagues are using words that are conventionally understood to be slurs?’ without actually saying it?

There is, unfortunately, a small cohort of white people who love looking for ‘loopholes’ allowing them to use slurs without facing repercussions. The reality is there is no need. Legitimate, good faith questions can be asked without using profoundly offensive terms, as is clear from the thousands of people who manage to get through diversity training every year without using them.

He's a Conservative Councillor.

He was backed by The Free Speech Union, which was set up by Toby Young, who is a right wing libertarian with a history of controversy behind him, including mysogynistic and homophobic twitter posts.

He claims that white middle aged men are bottom of the heap.

It's odd that none of the coverage is mentioning this. Lloyds do seem to have made a complete mess of it, but it's almost as if the right wing are looking for a free speech martyr and he has happily provided them with one.

So probably not just an innocent query in the first place, but a deliberate attempt to provoke.

it is ageism though. it is a blanket assumption that people who are now of pensionable age are generally racist.

FWIW i'm glad the tribunal actually dismissed the claim that he was a subject of racism. The idea that - in banking! - mc middle aged white men are in any way anything except top of the pile is hilarious.

‘In the 1960s you could walk into a haberdashery and ask for cotton that was n*** brown. It wasn't always seen as insulting in the UK. ‘

insulting to who exactly? Do you think black people were okay with that? Seriously? Do you think black people were walking in to shops and asking for things in ‘ n brown’?

my mother sure as hell never used that word, and no one I know ever used that word and I’m in my 50s and from a very white region where there wasn’t much diversity and people probably were more racist than other U.K. cities. But even in my back water we knew what racist language was.

Ah I see. I must say that the absolute worst examples of corporate racism I've witnessed were not accompanied by any slavery-era slurs. Quite the opposite, were delivered in a very polite way with a smile, in a way that everyone understood what was going on, but there was zero to report.

Also, anyone asking questions of any nature (contentious or not) on corporate trainings like that is totally nuts, in my opinion. They exist as tick-box exercises. I've attended dozens by now and very rarely someone from audience asks a question - and if they do, it is usually to indirectly proudly signal how super-tolerant they are, or someone from HR mentioning the relevant policies.