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AIBU?

Hold on!

47 replies

ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 17:52

mumsneedwine · Today 17:28

@ReallyAgainReally doctors have to pay for further exams, indemnity insurance and parking at the hospital. Out of their own pocket. Exams can cost £000s a year. And are hard.
I'm sure they'd love £30 an hour !

----
@mumsneedwine


Sorry the other thread has stopped accepting new posts but this is a massive misrepresentation of my point. That's £30 for a court session on one day. You can only travel to one court on any given day. Meaning, earning £30 a day. Add their indemnity insurance and travel to and from court. SO they don't earn on that day, and could be many days like that, but fund their job out of own pockets.

These two posts have illustrated what I was trying to say: Which employees'/ workers household bills during this cost of living crisis do we as a nation prioritise? Everyone is struggling./ most people are. Most people are struggling. Even solicitors working part time with kids would struggle. OP needs to check if she can go back full time- just like ALL/ MOST mums have to. Hers is no special case. In fact she could have started her thread like all other struggling single mums on PT wages with kids without using 'junior doctor' title. Even a scientist in that position would struggle.

I agree pay restoration needs to be looked at but 1) now is not the time and 2) unless JD reduce their ONE STOP hefty 35% demand to something the nation can afford, right now.

OP posts:

Am I being unreasonable?

32 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
66%
You are NOT being unreasonable
34%
ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 17:53

Oh, wasn't asking for a poll. It's the first thread I have started on here.

OP posts:
Daniagainagainagain · 04/01/2024 17:54

Eh?

Jacfrost · 04/01/2024 17:54

What?

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 17:55

@ReallyAgainReally then they will leave. The choice is stark :

Agree a plan for FPR (does not need to be in one year)

Or

Doctors leave in droves. A recent meeting of 350 F1/2 in one deanery. 349 have looked into leaving the NHS.

No doctors. No NHS.

ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 17:56

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 17:55

@ReallyAgainReally then they will leave. The choice is stark :

Agree a plan for FPR (does not need to be in one year)

Or

Doctors leave in droves. A recent meeting of 350 F1/2 in one deanery. 349 have looked into leaving the NHS.

No doctors. No NHS.

Agree a plan for FPR (does not need to be in one year) 👍

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:02

@ReallyAgainReally so do the BNA. They have never asked for it in one year. That's why Scotland is settled.

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:03

BMA

ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 18:05

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:03

BMA

👌

OP posts:
ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 18:13

@mumsneedwine

However, I have just seen a post on twitter -so not sure how true it is although an LBC presenter also makes the same claim- that scrapping IHT will cost the Gov 7 billion (is that per year?) and restoring the JD's pay will cost us 1,3 billion (I believe also per year).

I claimed to be fair in previous post whilst not agreeing with teh 35% demand. However, I was liking the IHT being scrapped so my siblings who did a lot to help mum bring me up when dad died when I was 12 could get a good chunk, but, if those numbers are correct, then I am willing to forgo the IHT cut so JD can get something if not all. Siblings will still get a good amount as it is-they just disserve more, according to me.

Another poster said 18 to 24 gbp per hour would be fair to JDs. I agreed and said my quick mental calculation also gave me 18 to around 22 gbp per hour a few days ago when I heard they are on £15 per hour which is low. However, timing is everything though.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:23

@ReallyAgainReally 4% of the population will pay IHT. The very rich 4% who haven't had to pay care fees.

And it will cost 8x what it will cost for FPR.

It really is that simple. It's not about money, it's about this shower killing the NHS so they can privatise it. And then sell dodgy contracts to their family and friends.

Meanwhile, our trained doctors will be elsewhere. It's so so sad.

Mumaway · 04/01/2024 18:24

The strikes have already cost far more (in extra costs for staff to cover the gaps, and costs from empty theatres etc) than it would have cost in full restoration for every member of NHS staff. This government are looking to scapegoat the drs in the NHS downfall, which is of their own making.

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:25

@ReallyAgainReally and it's good to know that when sensible people hear the facts, they realise £20 for a doctor is really not asking the earth.

But the government will not negotiate while strikes are planned. This had never happened before in the history of industrial relations. Only the NHS are held to this.
Negotiate now. The BMA are ready and waiting.

ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 18:33

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:23

@ReallyAgainReally 4% of the population will pay IHT. The very rich 4% who haven't had to pay care fees.

And it will cost 8x what it will cost for FPR.

It really is that simple. It's not about money, it's about this shower killing the NHS so they can privatise it. And then sell dodgy contracts to their family and friends.

Meanwhile, our trained doctors will be elsewhere. It's so so sad.

Thank you. As ridiculous as 35% demand sounds to me, I am also sloooowly starting to think it is NOT about the money with Rishi.

A few scenarios I have heard:

  1. Wanting to leave the JDs problem to labour.
  2. Wanting to hold on to inflation going down as we have just made some inroads ( I do support the gov on this point (and this reason only) IF the gov is genuine, but I don't know now if their refusal is genuine.)


Remind me, what is the gov counter offer to JDs? How much %?
OP posts:
ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 18:36

Mumaway · 04/01/2024 18:24

The strikes have already cost far more (in extra costs for staff to cover the gaps, and costs from empty theatres etc) than it would have cost in full restoration for every member of NHS staff. This government are looking to scapegoat the drs in the NHS downfall, which is of their own making.

I heard that too. Something like 3 billion. Which I sympathised with, when I heard it. But now I realise it is NOT really a like for like with the cost of the 35% increase as the increase is apparently 1,3 billion each year.

Of course, all my other points above remain. Just addressing this calculation and the claim I heard making these costs equal- which they are not- attached to it.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:37

@ReallyAgainReally they've offered SOME doctors 8%, which they imposed (so hourly pay went from £14.50 an hour to £15.33). And some got 6% imposed.
They the offered SOME doctors a further 3% (so 45p extra an hour), but most nothing more. The spin of 12% is for a handful of grades.

They are not asking for a pay rise. They are asking for the pay cuts to be reversed.
In 2006 an F1 took home £2,104. This month they took home £2,096. In real terms. Does this seem right in any world ??

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:38

@ReallyAgainReally but the fact that the extra money to pay the consultants to cover shows the money was there. They chose not to give the FPR, or even part of it.

ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 18:44

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:25

@ReallyAgainReally and it's good to know that when sensible people hear the facts, they realise £20 for a doctor is really not asking the earth.

But the government will not negotiate while strikes are planned. This had never happened before in the history of industrial relations. Only the NHS are held to this.
Negotiate now. The BMA are ready and waiting.

@mumsneedwine ...and it's good to know that when sensible people hear the facts, they realise £20 for a doctor is really not asking the earth.

Thank you. Correct. I have found I am being fed by all parties and their cronies unclear information to muddy the waters. However, when facts are looked at calmly on both sides without propaganda from either side, I started understanding both arguments better and got myself to the middle ground. Media and all, make it like there is a massive wedge between the two. It all sounded dictatorial on both sides, but now I understand better.

I am listening to different sources and will continue to do so, so I get a more balanced view.

It is much like the Israeli gov constantly sounding 'militant' that I switch off when they come on- They scare me for humanity. Last night it was the Ambassador on LBC- she left me frightened and, I support both sides to get peace.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:49

@ReallyAgainReally am with you there too.

If you're interested in how else the government are trying to harm the NHS, read about physician associates. They were brought in to be physician assistants, to take bits of the job that meant doctors could get on with other stuff. But they are now acting as doctors, GPs and in some cases apparently operating on people. This is after a 2 year post grad degree (could have food science as a first degree). They can't prescribe or order scans. And yet, they start on £40,000 a year. 30% more than doctors. Utterly bonkers.

ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 18:50

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:37

@ReallyAgainReally they've offered SOME doctors 8%, which they imposed (so hourly pay went from £14.50 an hour to £15.33). And some got 6% imposed.
They the offered SOME doctors a further 3% (so 45p extra an hour), but most nothing more. The spin of 12% is for a handful of grades.

They are not asking for a pay rise. They are asking for the pay cuts to be reversed.
In 2006 an F1 took home £2,104. This month they took home £2,096. In real terms. Does this seem right in any world ??

I see. Thank you very much for this info.

And let me not start on the billions stolen by the Tories during covid/PPE. We could afford to pay our JDS, employ new ones too and improve our hospitals. Even that waiting list just needs someone wanting to shorten it, and it would happen.

Too much politics for my liking in the way JDs and NHS are being dealt with.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:51

Oh and they work a 35 hour week, 9am-5pm. No shifts, no nights. No further exams, no rotational training.

ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 19:00

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:49

@ReallyAgainReally am with you there too.

If you're interested in how else the government are trying to harm the NHS, read about physician associates. They were brought in to be physician assistants, to take bits of the job that meant doctors could get on with other stuff. But they are now acting as doctors, GPs and in some cases apparently operating on people. This is after a 2 year post grad degree (could have food science as a first degree). They can't prescribe or order scans. And yet, they start on £40,000 a year. 30% more than doctors. Utterly bonkers.

Thank you so much for info. You are fitting all the puzzles back into place as I dip in and out of conversations on JDs. As I said I found when there is one speaker from one side, they only talk about their demand/blank refusal and how unreasonable the other side is for not granting their full demand/ for refusing to drop the demands. I get nothing in between unless I start exploring more. So I normally just switch off- I detest propaganda.

However, I have heard snippets of physicians being brought in by the back door. I understand regulation very well- I specialise in it- and even I know, all it was REQUIRED, was the Medical Council to pass a regulation giving them the authority and powers that they currently have- so it is something sooo easy for those in authority to do.

Hold on. How much are JDs currently on? Please give me a range i.e 1st year; 2to 5 years and 5 years to 8/10 years?

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 19:05

This is the JD payscale. For a 40 hour week (which none of them work). They do not out earn a PA for 7 years.

Hold on!
ReallyAgainReally · 04/01/2024 19:08

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 18:51

Oh and they work a 35 hour week, 9am-5pm. No shifts, no nights. No further exams, no rotational training.

Oh, that's unfair. I am sorry to read this. I am very soft, and hate unfairness, no matter who it is directed at. I believe in justice, fairness and equality.

The one thing the legal sector is good at, (law society and Bar council) is restricting regulated work to only practising solicitors or barristers.

As anyone with a bit of brain can attend courses, buy books and carry out some routine legal work within a year or 2, leaving the trained professionals at a disadvantage if not out of pocket whilst carrying their huge study loans/debts. Even their assistants could set up on their own after, say, 10 years of assisting someone, because you get to understand things reasonably well- so the regulation won't allow them.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 19:11

And the GMC has decided to regulate them. The doctors regulator. For a while they were going to get the same 7 digit number as a qualified doctor, so no way to differentiate. But after a stink by doctors on social media they will now get some letters at the start.
But why is the GMC regulating anything but doctors ? Oh, wait, the government has given them a huge bung.

Can't see a GP ? You'd think there was a shortage. But nope. The doctors now can't get locum GP roles as there is no funding. But there's loads to fund PAs. So be careful. That's who you may speak to at your surgery.

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 19:12

@ReallyAgainReally what this all needs is for some lawyers to look at it. It's a criminal offence to pretend to be a doctor if you're not. However .....

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