Hold on!

[ReallyAgainReally]

mumsneedwine · Today 17:28

@ReallyAgainReally doctors have to pay for further exams, indemnity insurance and parking at the hospital. Out of their own pocket. Exams can cost £000s a year. And are hard.
I'm sure they'd love £30 an hour !

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@mumsneedwine

Sorry the other thread has stopped accepting new posts but this is a massive misrepresentation of my point. That's £30 for a court session on one day. You can only travel to one court on any given day. Meaning, earning £30 a day. Add their indemnity insurance and travel to and from court. SO they don't earn on that day, and could be many days like that, but fund their job out of own pockets.

These two posts have illustrated what I was trying to say: Which employees'/ workers household bills during this cost of living crisis do we as a nation prioritise? Everyone is struggling./ most people are. Most people are struggling. Even solicitors working part time with kids would struggle. OP needs to check if she can go back full time- just like ALL/ MOST mums have to. Hers is no special case. In fact she could have started her thread like all other struggling single mums on PT wages with kids without using 'junior doctor' title. Even a scientist in that position would struggle.

I agree pay restoration needs to be looked at but 1) now is not the time and 2) unless JD reduce their ONE STOP hefty 35% demand to something the nation can afford, right now.

Thank you. I cannot claim to understand it all, but they do need to start at around £40K per annum, I agree. And even that, is not enough given their debts, parking payments at hospitals and all the things you helpfully listed.

On parking, I have heard it is because of lack of space for both nurses and patients and the hospitals do have some emergency parking available, i believe for both- that seemed understandable given lack of land.

You see, calm information is what the nation needs. On LBC sometimes all I hear is a phone-in asking people to ring in: 'If you had sympathy for JDs months ago, are you still supporting them or are you fed up now' lol or similar. And that's all that stays in my head. I could easily say I am fed up of JDs strikes because I hear the 'strikes a lot', but then it is a wrong a conclusion if it is a blanket fed up/not fed up choice. That's how they are manipulating us.

However, having seen the impact of high inflation on the majority of the nation, at least, I was able to take that into account as evidence and not manipulation.

Thank you again, for such an informative discussion.

Warning: Luckily read on MNs that if you are scheduled to see a doctor- do ask the person seeing you, if they are a doctor. I was shocked to read it a couple of times here.

@ReallyAgainReally it's all so sad. Unfortunately parking is not available to most hospital staff, unless you want to pay £15 a day. So an hours wage. In some cases they get clamped as they overstay, because they were saving a life after their shift finished. Very likely unpaid.

I hope others realise how bad things are. The media have a lot to answer for in the demise of the NHS. Susanna Reid was great this morning, but listen to Dr Hilary Jones talking to her, as he sounded so sad when explaining the issues.

As an NHS clinical psychologist, this has genuinely surprised me. The career pathway in terms of salary and progression as a clinical psychologist seems far better than that for medical doctors. And although I obviously believe that my colleagues and I do a very important job, I personally think medics deserve to be paid more than we are.

For context, this is how it looks salary wise in clinical psychology in the NHS:

As trainees (doing part time study and part time placement work in the NHS), trainee clinical psychologists are paid an NHS band 6 (£35,392 rising to £37,350 after 2 years - training is a 3 year Doctorate course so you'd progress to the top for your final year as a trainee).

On completion of this a newly qualified clinical psychologist is paid an NHS band 7 (£43,742 rising to £45,996 after 2 years).

I've been qualified 7 years and I am currently a Senior Clinical Psychologist, being paid an NHS band 8a salary (£50,952 rising to £57,349 after 5 years).

My next step (hopefully within the next 5 years) is to secure a Consultant Psychologist post which is currently an NHS band 8c (£70,417 rising to £81,138 after 5 years in post).

How can it not be at least equivalent if not higher for medics?

@ncforthisthread24 exactly. His can it not be equivalent to similarly trained colleagues. Can we see why they are unhappy ?

Well I wouldn't say we are similarly trained at all - the medical model and training is quite different to the clinical psychology one. Nonetheless, despite the differences, I personally believe medics do a job worthy of more pay than mine. That's not to devalue what I do and am very passionate about, of course! It's just a shock to realise the huge gap in pay between my profession and theirs, I suppose is what I'm saying.

@ncforthisthread24 I hate the 'medical model' phrase. What does it mean ??

I find it crazy that a 5 year qualified doctor earns £43,000. Teachers earn that after 6 years. PAs after no years, straight out of Uni after those 2 years learning in the medical model.

Well I can only answer from my own background and training. In clinical psychology we typically contrast our approach with the medical model in the sense that, medicine is typically diagnosis-led. As psychologists we care less about a diagnosis, and instead are formulation driven, which means we seek to understand the factors underlying a problem and keeping it going, and we work with that in therapy; as opposed to prescribing a treatment based on a diagnostic label. If that makes any sense!

(Disclaimer: This is my very brief and crude explanation!)

And it's absolutely not to say one approach is better than the other - I believe the two approaches can complement one another when used well together.

For example that's what typically distinguishes us from a psychiatrist, who is a medical doctor by training and therefore able to prescribe medication. We are not.

👏👏Thank you for this perspective. They make it sound like JDS want !00K in yr 1 listening to the commentary.

Why are they mistreating JDs financially? Any reason? Is it because their training is paid for, although I also hear student debts (if not mistaken)- arguments to hate JDs are so confusing.

I did hear claims of Tories' idea/ wish to run down the NHS to privatise the NHS, but other professionals within the NHS seem to be okaish.

@ReallyAgainReally training paid for ??? In reality it's £100,000 of debt at 6% interest. They will pay back over £250,000.

And ongoing training is a joke. It's mostly 1 hour a week dedicated training. The rest is done while doing the job (if you're lucky & everyone not too busy). No one knows how they've come up with the massive figure. To be honest, most of their training is via PassMed. Which they pay for themselves.

And what pay scale are psychiatrist who seem to be 'dual' from your explanation? Just curious.

Why are they mistreating JDs financially? Any reason? Is it because their training is paid for,

Clinical psychology training is also fully funded. You are employed by the NHS on a band 6 salary whilst training, so in fact not only is the training funded, it's salaried.

I equally do not understand the disparity.

Oh dear! It gets worse!

I accrued student debt from completing my undergraduate psychology degree, however I didn't from completing my Clinical Psych Doctorate.

Dear Lord.

JDs seem to need to be louder on SM and band together to start their own radio station.

But then they are too overworked, depressed, counting pennies to survive. to have any spare time or energy to be on SM.

@ReallyAgainReally

What do you mean by "dual"?

Psychiatrists are not paid on the Agenda for Change payscales as far as I'm aware, therefore I don't think their pay maps onto the bandings for clinical psychs. However in my own professional experience the ones I've worked with are paid in excess of 100k (usually 90-120k bracket). They are however Consultant Psychiatrists holding ultimate clinical and often legal responsibility for patients who are for example detained in hospital under the MH Act. Therefore their pay reflects that level of responsibility I assume. They'd be the one not only prescribing the medication but having the authority to discharge the patient from their section or allow them leave under the MHA, etc.

@ncforthisthread24 disparity. Can I guess once upon a time the UK needed to entice people to train as clinical phycologists? Well, seeing how they are treating JDs who are bound to leave the profession, maybe give it another decade and govs will be offering 250K salaries to anyone wanting to study medicine. Actions have consequences.

@ReallyAgainReally unfortunately they are mostly planning their ways to emigrate. Lots of medical students taking USMLE now, which is the exam needed to work in the US. NZ offering residency on taking a job, no need to apply. £125,000 for ST1 in some cases. Australia offering £85,000 for F2 (against our £34). For a 35 hour week.

They've had enough, and media so negative it's just not worth trying. Unless the public wise up they won't be any doctors, private or NHS.

In my experience Consultant Psychiatrists do value the input of their psychology and nursing colleagues when making decisions around for example, discharging or giving patients leave when detained under the MH Act, but ultimately they're the ones signing off decisions about a patient's care so on their heads be it. That's I assume why they get paid the big bucks.

Oh absolutely. I agree.