To want to go to medical school at 37?

[MilanHilton]

I’m 37, married with two nursery aged children. Husband and I both earn £45k each so we live comfortably but not well off.

My medical care when I was pregnant was atrocious and the NHS was negligent (they admitted it). Which really got me thinking… I want to be a doctor that LISTENS to women so that what happened to me won’t happen to another lady.

I know I’m old, and coming from a non science background I’ll have to do 6 years in medical school and then extra training to be an OBGYN. Looking at the junior doctor pay bands it is going to take me years to get back to my current salary. Not to mention needing to do shift work and the stress of it all.

Financially it will be a tight decade and by the time I finish uni, the kids will be towards the end of primary so hopefully life will be easier. I’ll be mid 40s when I finish medical school so will still have another 20 years of working still.

AIBU for considering putting my young family through a decade of financial and emotional stress with the hope that I’ll earn more in the future? Is it worth the stress?

AINBU - go be a doctor! You’ll save lives (sometimes)
AIBU - that’s too much work and financial turmoil, even if you become a doctor you’re not going to address the chronic lack of resource in NHS

You could be a wonderful dr, but you can’t change the NHS. You’d be better becoming a politician if you want to change it.

Dd1 is an obs gynae registrar (st5) and she certainly wouldn't recommend it. Every year you are moved to a different hospital in your deanery and since October she has had a 90 minute commute each way! It's much harder to manage now she's married and pregnant.

Around 30 applicants per place for graduate entry medicine

Another one here to say I’d advise against it.

I was a mature medical student (changed from Nursing) and absolutely loved the course but I was single and without children at that point.

As a student I remember feeling so happy that I’d found something that interested me so much, and medicine as a subject really is fascinating. Unfortunately the reality of working in the NHS is very different. Yes there’s lots of times when you feel like you really do make a difference and I’ve certainly never questioned the ‘worth’ of the job, but day to day it’s pretty awful. We are hugely undervalued as a profession and I have now lost count of the number of colleagues who have either emigrated, left medicine or committed suicide.

I promise you most of use went into the job wanting to be the best doctor we could be who listens and provides the very best care (and surprisingly often with a bad experience on the ‘other side of the fence’’ as a trigger for doing it). Sadly the reality is it’s not like that. I’m a GP and when I’m seeing patient number 45 of 60 or more in the day (more often than not someone really very well who “felt it was best to get it checked”) all I care about is trying to avoid being reported to the GMC, sued or up on a manslaughter charge.

Just about every media outlet is full of stories of how doctors missed things or are woefully untrained in this, that or the other area. Lots of clickbait stories about what doctors said or did wrong which can’t be verified or refuted due to confidentiality. We are human and most of us just want to do a decent job but I think it’s impossible in the current climate. I feel the only people who truly understand are other doctors.

I’m leaving the profession this year along with many others. Like I say think very, very carefully- there’s a lot of ‘kudos’ to being a doctor but don’t let this blinker you to the reality of what you (and your family) will be giving up by taking this path.

Best wishes whatever you decide.

IMHO this is largely about the kind of person you are.
Are you an easy, flexible sleeper, who tends not to suffer badly from jet-lag (for example)? Generally easy-going? High energy? Good concentration and focus? Healthy? If so, could be good. If not, tread very carefully.
Good luck!

Honestly don't do it. No one enters the system to let people down, the system is broken and you will be unable to provide the care you want to give. The working conditions are horrific. The training is extremely rigorous and demanding. It will impact your family life profoundly. The pay is rubbish. There are alternatives where you can can support women though pregnancy and beyond, e.g. midwife, doula, lactation consultant. If you're from a non science background will you need to redo GCSEs, a levels or do an access course? You will need work experience too, probably, to get on a course as they will be keen to see you understand the realities of the role, which you should do, as it sounds like you don't.

DH would love a ‘live, laugh, laparoscopy’ sign - might have one made for his birthday…

Gosh no! Stick with the salary you are on now. I’m entering my 7th year after qualifying and don’t earn as much as you (admittedly I work PT but that is because my PT hours equate to most people’s FT hours plus studying on top!). That’s with £100 a month of professional fees on top (no reduction for PT hours), an hour commute each way to my training placement (fuel £££) and increased childcare fees because of long hours and I have put my little girl into an extra 1/2 day per week so I can study for my exams/work on my training portfolio that is quite rigorous to complete each year.

Sorry I haven’t read the full thread- ironically am at home studying for upcoming exam but I have seen you have had some unfair comments. I’d be happy to speak to you if you want a bit more of an idea of what postgraduate training looks like- medical school is the “easy’ part! PM me if I can help.

Having left the NHS after 37 years I would say no, it's not realistic. It's laudable that you want to do something to change what was a horrible experience for you. but this isn't the way.
Even if you did get to be an OBGYN consultant, how much impact do you think you could have within a broken system? You can't spend ages with each patient, gently describing what their treatment is, patiently explaining what is going on. Unfortunately, compassion takes time and you won't have it. You will have a list of patients to see and not enough hours to do it, the stress of that alone is huge,, the moral injury of not giving your patients the care you trained to give, and the trauma you see daily. All of these will wear away at you.
Compassion fatigue is real, you mentally cannot deliver empathetic, compassionate care 100% of the time, not in this system and not if you want to preserve your own mental health

Clearly I’m just a lazy patronising person. You guys are right, I’m too thinned skin for this.
I wouldn't have said anything like that, not until your last post anyway. I would have said you sound idealistic and a bit naive/not very well informed but that would apply to lots of people - there seem to be posts along the same lines pretty regularly here. Lots of people have somewhat rose tinted views about working in healthcare, and other professions of course. One of my best friends is a vet and the reality of her life is very different to what most people expect. There's nothing wrong with not knowing stuff and asking for information. It's laudable that you want to help other people and it would be wonderful if you could make a difference. I've experienced very poor treatment in the NHS both for myself and other members of my family so I do understand why you might feel as you do, but sadly, your dream is probably not realistic.
And really nobody has said anything terribly rude or unreasonable to you on this thread. If you were to pursue medicine I'm afraid you will face a massive amount of negativity and rudeness throughout your career. I started at medical school in the 80s and have just retired and honestly I have had far worse things said and done to me more or less every working day of my life in that time than pretty much any of the comments on this thread. The reality is that you do need to be extremely resillient to put up with being on the frontline of the NHS, or probably any public service, in any capacity. If you are interested in any healthcare role at all, the best thing to do would be to get some work experience even as a volunteer and get some idea what it's really like, because you do seem to have reacted quite negatively to some fairly mild criticism on here.

A few things to add having now read the full post.

1. 4 year graduate medical programmes do come with tuition fee loans except for the first ~£3.5 but are ultra ultra competitive as a result

2. I'm most definitely at a medical school, signposts everywhere plus same at all tjis I visited when applying - completely normal terminology.

3. I'm only in my first year, but I definitely do get to see my kids and am certainly not completely absent from their lives. I'm currently in 3 days a week and not for full days usually. I do do a lot of work by myself at home, in evenings and weekends around them. I choose to prioritise that but it is very tiring. In future clinical years, I'll be in more but kids will be older plus my medical school are supportive of parents (I don't think all med schools are but mine is known for a diverse cohort) and will place me as locally to home as possible. I'm not the oldest on my course, not do I have the most kids!

4. For Foundation years, even though the allocation process has changed, parents and others with mitigating circumstances can get pre-allocated locally. What this means for me is that I'll have certainty and won't be a really long way from home but any ambitions on my part are completely irrelevant to be honest. I won't be able to choose my preferred rotations and I won't be able to be picky about specialties. It will be a case of I get what I get and do what I can do, which is available locally and not ultra-competitive or oversubscribed. I'm ok with that but if I was aiming for a specific career like OBS, I'd be disappointed.

5. Whoever mentioned that maintenance loans are means-tested on household income is incorrect, they very much are and reduce amount a lot even at fairly low level, with dependants and only one income coming in and paying for everything. I've needed significant savings to do this.

Yeah this. ^ The fact I would not be qualified til I was in my mid 40s, and I would be living on the bones of my arse for 6-7 years, and even then would not be guaranteed a job that would pay any more than stacking shelves in B & M means I would not do it. Sorry @MilanHilton I just wouldn't.

I think some people romanticize the idea of being a doctor, like 'I wanna help people and save lives and make the NHS better etc...' But in reality, you will just be another overworked underpaid NHS staff member who will rarely see your family, or get any thanks from anyone. You being a doctor is not going to make the NHS better.

It's a no from me. (Sorry.)

I started googling med school after binge watching Greys anatomy. The fantasy passes after a week or so.

You need to enjoy your family whilst the children are young not spend all your time along with your nose in a laptop.

This.

Shocked you're even considering it! Especially with 2 very young kids and a non medical non science background.

I think becoming a doula would be a good thing. Right alongside women throughout their pregnancy and during childbirth. Helping them through it but advocating for them and advising them.

Seems a good fit.

It’s so true about not having the time. I can remember as a student midwife being told by the antenatal clinic sister not to make eye contact with women in appointments as it will encourage talking and your appts will take too long and clinic overruns. I can remember being horrified by this advice.

ive never worked as a qualified midwife in clinic so not sure if this is still a thing but I suppose realistically what do you do when the clinics are over filled? You spend time and are emphatic with people, morning clinic overruns by an hour and you get no lunch break (was a frequent occurrence) and then straight into afternoon clinic which also overruns and you’re an hour late getting home. I remember coming out a room once as a second year student to find all the qualified midwives had gone home!

It’s ok as a student on a 4 week placement but if that was your working life 5 days a week and you worked non stop from 8:30 to 6pm with no break how fucked would your mental health be? So I can see why even if we ignore the extreme advice about no eye contact there isn’t the time for decent care without giving yourself a breakdown.

@MilanHilton You sound like a smart, ambitious person with lots of drive. Rather than qualifying as a doctor, which is not really a practical route for you, how about looking at healthcare policy/ patient rights campaign groups and seeing how you could progress your career there. There are charities like Birthrights which look into patient experiences like yours. Perhaps that would be a more feasible way of making a difference.

This is the timeline to OBGYN consultant:

Foundation course due to non-scientific background: 1 year
Medical school: 5 years
Foundation training: 2 years
Getting to consultant: another 10-15 years?

Assuming you apply now to start next academic year at the age of 38, you’re looking at late-50s before you’re a consultant.

I am normally very encouraging of career changes, but this doesn’t seem like a very practical idea, OP, sorry.

I know someone who started at 45 or thereabouts, no science background after GCSE / O-levels, a single parent to two very young children, and they are graduating this year - I believe on track for a first. So definitely doable. But probably easier as their children live full time with another parent, and there has been no big pressure to contribute financially as the other parent is earning ok money. I think they ended with a 50K+ debt anyway.

Another thing to be aware of is that your 10 years of studying and training are going to suck because you'll always be the outsider. The other students are all young, single, childfree and one of the key factors of getting through gruelling medical school is having emotional support from friends. Think 20 year-olds pulling all nighters then blowing off steam in wild parties and holidays. Realistically, you won't be able to join nor feel inclined to do so. Would your kids and husband be enough emotional support for the entire journey, without understanding how difficult it is? Or would they resent you for taking so much time away from family responsibilities?

Medical students are fairly cliquey, with many coming from privileged backgrounds as well. From experience, the second & third generation doctors (whose parents all know each other) tend to stick together immediately. The first gen medical students find friends amongst each other or eventually join the main inner circle. The mature students are usually just forgotten or even worse ostracised. It's not direct bullying but just falling through the gaps. There was a mature student in DH's year with a child and none of the other students warmed to her because she kept requesting specific rotas or last min changes due to childcare or child-related issues. In retrospect, this makes perfect sense if you have kids but there's no way a bunch of students in their mid 20s could relate to that.

Please do this for you and all the people you can help, I think it’s brilliant.

an alternative would be to look at a physician associate qualification? It might be a more easily worked compromise?

That's certainly an accomplishment, but it's only finishing uni, which is the easy part. There are many, many more years of relentless work and study, harder than uni, for the route the OP wants.

OP, you do know how physically knackered you'll feel?
There'll be a lot more (expensive) studying to qualify for obs& gynae.
The defence fees are humongous.
Medicine is NOT family friendly - which is why so many marriages break up, or doctors choose not to have kids.
In your first few years as a junior doc, you could be sent to work anywhere in the country.
Otherwise, go for it 🤣 (I wouldn't!).

You are not too old, in that there are training hospitals that would accept someone of 37 or 38.

As a doctor, who trained as a mature student (I was 22 when I started) it was remarkably hard work. I was in love with the idea of medicine and that was what sustained me. It was all very intense.

However, I think I would have found all the on calls increasingly difficult as I got older. I think O & G is a tough speciality for a woman especially with young children (though your young children would be in secondary school maybe by the time you started training). Also, the NHS is becoming increasingly difficult as a workplace and the pay and support arrangements are being eroded; patients are more demanding, and more dissatisfied (often but not always with good cause).

If you have enough energy and passion, then it might be wonderful. But you would need to make sacrifices, especially perhaps in terms of time with your children while they are young, when you aren't too busy or tired to focus on their needs.

My daughter is studying to become a chiropractor she has told me that there are men and women in their 30's on the course. One of them recently got married and they have children. What you have posted is not a turn off it's about maturity and how life is. The 30 year olds are not going to go out partying they will go home to their families. Mature students are not interested in cliques there main goal is to make there family life better.

@User4363463 , re mature students being outsiders, that's not the case at my med school at all but I think our cohorts are unusually diverse. I'm on a 5 year course, as without a science background GEM and the science -based entrance exam would have been tough for me. So I am studying alongside a lot of 18 year olds too, but also over 50 previous graduates of very varied ages and backgrounds. I've not experienced any ostracism/age discrimination at all, although I'm sure I will at some point. And of course this is very specific to where I'm studying and no idea where OP is based. Long story short though, medicine is in some regards/areas, embracing diversity and moving away from the very traditional academic/school leaver model as extreme resilience is needed these days.