Being in top set at a state school makes a HUGE difference

[theprincessthepea]

To think that you have a better chance of having a successful secondary school experience if you are in top set.

I was catching up with some mums and I asked them how the secondary school experience is going for them so far.

It’s a good school (we didn’t get into our first choice) but they have a huge focus on sports, music and extracurricular aswell as encouraging extra studies.

My DD is in top set, I have found that she has been challenged. She is taking up 2 instruments which she is enjoying. She has joined the drama club and outside of this does gymnastics. She has been chosen to take up Latin and takes up extra duties at the library. She is encouraged by teachers. So are the other 2 friends in top set, their parents are pretty happy with the experience so far. Her form tutor is also very encouraging (e.g. reminding her she can run for things like school council. Said she was bright etc).

However the parents that have their children in the lower sets (mid to low) felt that the school didn’t encourage their children at all. Were not happy with the experience. Didn’t feel that the school were pushing their children. Most of these parents ensured their children were involved in at least 1 extracurricular activity, both at school and outside school.

Personally I went through state school education - was in second set and found the experience OK compared to friends that were in top set.

AIBU for believing that to make the most of a state school or get an education that is close to what people pay for in private school - you have to be in top set classes.

Been chatting to my DGS this evening. He is in an 'academic stream' at his comp. He is extremely bright, He says the work is easy, but he likes the school overall. I hope they do stretch him.
His dad had scholarships at independent schools and still coasted.

I don’t know. I think a lot of it comes down to individual motivation etc.

I was too set everything in school. Went on to do a STEM degree now work in a well respected profession, but a lot of my academic success I put down to my drive to get a good job and also parental input when it came to studying.

I have two friends who were both top sets with me. One of them works minimum wage jobs… she’s just got a new job paying £24k and that’s a big step up for her. Then the other friend has a bit more direction in her career but didn’t go to uni despite being naturally very clever! And definitely didn’t reach her full potential. Their parents compared to mine were definitely a lot more hands off with the help and guidance they gave them. So I don’t think being too set really guarantees anything.

I think a lot of people hold a lot of store by setting and where their kid is, but setting can end of being really broad- often filled with nice, well behaved, compliant girls, who aren't necessarily brighter than ones in set 2 or 3. Especially in a smallish school.

Then sometimes your English set is determined by your science set, so you get an odd mix, but you have to put them somewhere.

Then your bottom set decides they're thick, so what's the point? Except they aren't thick, they've just buggered about for too long and now have a negative view of themselves.

Your top set kid decides that 'top set' is part of their identity, then struggles with a world where they're not top set. My ds sees himself as a top set kid, which I'm trying to dissuade, becausei don't like that slight air of superiorityit gives him. He's even in top set for mfl.He's utterly shit at mfl, but behaves himself, which casts some doubt on the robustness of the setting in his school.

I've taught the full range of permutations over the years. All sets can have their challenges, but top sets are definitely the easiest to teach. Although once you get to A level, you're back to mixed ability anyway.

My school has been mixed ability for a few years now. It's more challenging as a teacher, in terms of ensuring everyone can access all the levels, but does seem to benefit kids more. And a good teacher should be making any classroom space safe for all.

Schools are really not like the 90s anymore.

A lot of GCSE classes are mixed ability too unless it’s a core subject. I have everyone from a grade 9 to a grade 2 in my current yr10 class.

Not all bright kids are motivated, and vice versa, - but from a (former) teaching point of view, they do need to be in sets to allow appropriate academic progress. Bad behaviour is another issue entirely, and that needs to be dealt with firmly and quickly. That's easier said than done.

All the research points towards the setting system setting up those in the lower sets to fail. And it can last a lifetime. Often the basis for selecting which kids go into which sets is quite random, with poorer / SEND pupils far more likely to end up in bottom sets. The whole system is shit - and I say this as a former secondary teacher.

Really in secondary the top two sets are the best places to be for a variety of reasons. They tend to get better opportunities and better lessons because there’s better behaviour and teacher’s aren’t wasting energy and resources managing issues.

25 or so years ago I was in top sets and it did, on the whole, mean that behaviour was manageable so we could actually get through the curriculum (tough school in a deprived area). It’s good to hear that your child is being stretched academically, OP.

It does rely on the children being happy to that though, which is not necessarily going to be the case. My early family life was what would now be described as ‘chaotic’. However, I was extremely bright. Streaming from primary school onwards helped me to escape that background, and actually achieve something in life. When I was bored, ie when I wasn’t being stretched enough academically, I fell back on disruptive behaviour, as it’s what I was familiar with. When I was engaged, I would totally focus, and was happy to work hard and do a lot of self-led learning.
At my secondary school they decided to try having the more academically capable girls tutor those who were struggling in the years below. It was a disaster. None of the girls asked to do the tutoring had any interest in it, all found it incredibly frustrating dealing with people who just couldn’t understand what they were told the first time, a lot were very bad at hiding that frustration and the girls they were meant to be helping were left demoralised. Plus we all resented being asked to give up our learning time to help girls we, frankly, considered thick (teenage girls are not all very nice, let’s be honest!) The experiment was dropped pretty quickly. Had we been forced to continue, maybe some of us would have learned valuable life lessons, but honestly, I don’t think any of us were emotionally mature enough at that stage of our lives.

Is she asking for extra and more challenging work?

I'm a secondary school teacher. Top sets often have bigger classes as the pupils need less prompting to do work. Homework takes longer to mark. I always set challenge questions but I expect my top pupils to ASK for something even more challenging if they're interested!

My bottom set Y10 class is exhausting. I feel sorry for the kids who are well behaved but find the work challenging. They're in a class with naughty kids who are often bright but are in a bottom set as they refuse to behave and work. I always have high expectations of any child regardless of ability.

Further to this, I would say that fit some
of the children in top set, not streaming can mean them being bored and frustrated, and can itself lead to behavioural difficulties. Several of my friends at that age were from a similar background as me as our families were friends, and several of them went to schools where they weren’t engaged and challenged, and they ended up going off the rails, and never did get back on the straight and narrow. The assumption that clever kids will do well regardless is not, alas, entirely correct.

Sets are best for more able students. They don't get teased for being a nerd & can get through content quicker.

Bottom sets do tend to be really small though. Probably the worst place is one from bottom set as there will be more students & less time from teacher.

The issue is that schools don't cater currently well for students who aren't an academic. Not being academic isn't necessarily an indicator of future success in my opinion. Lots of tradies earning loads & running their own company etc & people with degrees earning lots less.

I think more able students tend to do extra curricular.

I voted YABU because it’s nothing like private school even if you are in the top set. However you get better behaved children in the top set. Year 8 DC is in a school that has sets for maths. Kids aren’t told what set they are in but guessed by the work set. DC said her maths class is so quiet compared to her other classes. That must be the biggest difference. She much preferred to be in the quieter class, and I hope it rubs off on her to be harder working too.

DD is in top set, school work is too easy, behaviour is better than mixed humanities classes. Is often encouraged to take part in extracurriculars gets to go on lots of trips and those aimed at (former) G&T type students.

However, she's autistic and finds the entire school experience thoroughly overwhelming and therefore hates school, does a minimal number of after school clubs as it's all she can cope with. Would love to learn an instrument and be more involved but completely shattered by the end of a normal school day.
Admittedly, if she was in mixed sets across the board and in a class where children have behavioural issues and w less academic it would be unbearable for her and her MH would spiral.

Personally I don't think the state school is fit for purpose for any ability student, the curriculum isn't fit to stretch the most able, there is too much content to teach and scaffold for those that need extra support, there are too many academic choices and not enough hands on practical work for those that thrive in that area DD got into a private girl's school but we didn't get a scholarship so had to turn it down. Even being in top sets can't compete with only 20 students of academically selected students in a class, 300 students in the entire school not the entire year.

@Blobblobblob has hit the nail on the head!

Is this not just because she's a genius? Can she start some university work?

Oh lads I was just being facetious. My kids are low average and quite content.

(or maybe I don’t have any kids at all.)

Agreed.

And I'd pull my son out of school and send him to private school sharpish if his secondary stopped setting. He's not there to help another child /a teacher, he's there for his own education.

Depends on the ethos and resources of the school. My DD is now in Yr13 but was in the bottom set for maths from Yr7 to Yr11. We had conversations with the teacher regularly about her moving up, but as her set only had about 12 kids with 2 teachers, she got loads of attention and easily achieved a grade 5 at GCSE.
So I couldn't fault how that (comprehensive) school looked after the lower set kids.

We were allocated in year 8 in sets 1-4 (4 being high). I was placed in set 2 which would have meant taking exams capped at a C grade in most subjects (inc. Maths).

My mum, thankfully, campaigned to get me moved into set 3 by Year 9. I achieved B-A*s in GCSEs, 3 As at A-level and a First from a redbrick (who by the way said I needed a B in maths GCSE to attend). I wonder what would have happened if my mum hadn't stepped in.

I think the initial setting was highly likely due to my mediocre performance in year 7 having come from a dreadful primary school. Like the 11+, your whole life potentially determined by the calibre of primary school.

Also, yes there is definitely a difference in the amount of crowd control required in lower versus higher sets.

We didn't have "top set" at my comprehensive and neither do my kids' comprehensive have this.

We were streamed for English and maths and that was it.

I only ever hear this 'top set' badge of honour stuff on MN.

@BabyYoshke

Oh lads I was just being facetious. My kids are low average and quite content.

I did wonder if your post was sarcastic. 😂

@BabyYoshke Interesting, what is her name?

You can never tell.on here tbf😂

Our school sets for maths and science and my DS does enjoy the fact that more learning goes on in those lessons than in some others as he's in the top sets where kids want to learn. Mind you in our primary they settedfor maths in year 6 and he was only in the middle set then so I was quite surprised he was in top set at secondary. I think it's good to stick with mixed ability in other subjects where the emphasis is more on depth than pace though.