to expect motorists to concentrate on driving properly, instead of correcting cyclists' behaviour?

[Triathlete]

Motorists kill 2,500 people a year on UK roads, and injure another 20,000 a year. Cyclists don't.

Cycle facilities are laughably bad, stopping and starting without warning, poorly designed, badly built.

Helmets only help people AFTER an collision has happened, they don't make cycling any safer, they just alleviate some of the consequences of a crash.

Some cyclists cycle on pavements and jump red lights. Many more motorists talk on mobiles, deliberately intimidate other road users, fiddle with cigarettes/radio/papers/laptop.

Cyclists are reducing congestion, the load on the NHS, air pollution and global warming. Motorists aren't.

If a cyclist makes a mistake, they'll probably hurt themselves. If a motorist makes a mistake, they'll probably hurt someone else.

Some cyclists cycle without lights and reflective gear. They'll learn. Many motorists drive with defective brakes, defective lights, no insurance, no licence. They couldn't give a stuff.

Most cyclists are also drivers and so they know about how cars, pedestrians and bikes mix. Most motorists are not cyclists, so they haven't a clue how scary it is when oh-so-important school-run-mum whips past at 6 inches away at 40mph in her 4x4.

Cyclists (and horseriders, skateboarders, joggers and so on) have an automatic right to use the road. Motorists are permitted to use the road so long as A) they have a driving licence, which can be withdrawn if they behave badly B) their car is safe, as shown by the MoT, and C) they pay vehicle excise duty, a charge based on the amount of pollution their car produces.

Cyclists contribute to the upkeep of the roads through general and council tax. However they don't cause anything like the damage to roads and buildings that motorists do.

You can kill someone in your car, and get away with a fine and a suspended licence.

And yet despite all the above, a majority of people see cyclists as aggressive, irresponsible, reprehensible road users. Why? It baffles me.

because some cyclists ride like complete wankers and cause a motorists heart to jump into their throat at how closely they missed killing them

My DH rides into the city every day and is a careful cyclist

One of my best friend's husbands was also an incredibly careful cyclist, didn't stop him being killed almost a year ago though

don't understand the point of this thread

Twig, did you hear lorry drivers are being given free wing mirror attachments in London to stop so many cyclists being killed by lorries turning left?

will try and find link

Yeah, but cyclists are flipping annoying aren't they? Especially the ones who wear all that weird shiny lycra stuff. Kinky, I reckon.

to expect motorists to concentrate on driving properly, instead of correcting cyclists' behaviour?

Hold on a minute - how can car driver 'correct a cyclists behaviour'.

I cycled 50mls y.day and witnessed disgraceful absolutely disgracefull driving. As I have progressively over the 20yrs - I have cycles that long.

Ok, we are not ALL perfect but let me tell you 1 final piece of info - I am not perfect and do make the odd mistake YET what happens to 'me' (cyclists) if we get hit by a car close as you can get to being DEAD = what happens to a car driver if they have an incident on the road: mostly come out with their life 100% of the time.

So I'd think twice all you car drivers before you sound off about cyclists because we take so much from you that you wouldnt want to go were I could take you in regards to stories/experiences/incidents that ONLY my 'lucky stars' have kept me my life thru no fault of my own and thankfully I'm still here !!!

Where I live the majority of people don't see cyclists as aggressive, irresponsible or reprehensible road users! Cyclists rule the roads round here, take a look!

Two wrongs don't make a right. When I cycle I don't go through red lights or on the pavement and I always wear safety gear. When I drive I do not race through amber lights, ignore cyclists or speed.

So long as people are doing all those things I think any good cyclist and/or Driver has every right to criticise.

YABU to expect all drivers to quit correcting the behaviour of the bad cyclists they see.

I do think yabu, just a bit, if a motorist is critisising a cyclist's behavious it's probably because they've witnessed them doing something dangerous/wrong, just like most motorists critisise other motorist's driving if it is bad or dangerous.

I have seen some really bad road use from cyclists, they don't seem to know how to use a roundabout and red lights are not for them.

What on earth do you mean by "oh-so-important-school-run-mum" obviously taking a child to school is a total waste of time, and there's me thinking that school run mums were doing something important.

I don't understand the point of this thread either. It's another one of those situations that depends on where you live.

Where I live the council has spent millions on new cycle lanes. They are empty 99% of the time because our local cyclists prefer to use the narrowed roads instead. So they are causing congestion because the traffic gets queued up behind them.

If motorists drive with defective brakes, no insurance etc they get prosecuted. When cyclists ride without lights etc they get away with it because they aren't required to be registered. Or tested. Or taxed.

Cyclists ignore red lights, one-way streets, roundabouts and rights of way. Cyclists drive up the inside of cars indicating to turn left and wonder why they get knocked off.

Locally the laughably-named A road from our town to a major city- single carriageway and only route- is regularly taken over for a cycle race. WTF? If I wanted to race my car on a public road do you think I'd be allowed to?

I see cyclists as "aggressive, irresponsible, reprehensible road users" because IME they are just that. By the same token an awful lot of drivers I meet nowadays aren't much better. We are in very much a "Me" society

" Where I live the council has spent millions on new cycle lanes. They are empty 99% of the time because our local cyclists prefer to use the narrowed roads instead. So they are causing congestion because the traffic gets queued up behind them."

Er...no, motorists cause congestion, not cyclists. If there were no private motor vehicles on the road, there would be no congestion. If there is a cyclist in front of you, they are not causing you 'congestion', at most they are causing you not to be able to put your foot down and join the back of the next queue 50 yards up the road as fast as you might like. Just be patient. The timing of traffic lights in town centres and city centres assumes an average speed of 14mph, this is about the speed of most cyclists. You are going to be lucky to be doing an average of 14mph in town/city centre rush hour anyway, and this is because of the amount of motorists on the road, so don't complain that the cyclist is holding you up.
One of the most effectie ways of cutting congestion would be if people could be educated not to use cars for journeys of less than a mile or two, but unfortunately a lot of people are far too set in their ways.

"If motorists drive with defective brakes, no insurance etc they get prosecuted. When cyclists ride without lights etc they get away with it because they aren't required to be registered. Or tested. Or taxed."

Cycling without lights is nothing to do with being registered. If cyclists had to be registered, there would be still ones who cycle without lights, just as there are numerous motorists who drive with defective or dazzling lights, or who have simply forgotten to turn them on.

Cyclists ignore red lights, one-way streets, roundabouts and rights of way. Cyclists drive up the inside of cars indicating to turn left and wonder why they get knocked off.

"Locally the laughably-named A road from our town to a major city- single carriageway and only route- is regularly taken over for a cycle race. WTF? If I wanted to race my car on a public road do you think I'd be allowed to?"

You already are. The nurburgring is a public road.

I can't drive and not suicidal enough to cycle where I live. As far as I can tell some motorists can't drive and some cyclists are on a death wish.

Also, if you over 12 years old then stop cycling on the pavement.

"they don't seem to know how to use a roundabout and red lights are not for them."
check your highway code - cyclists are not obliged to use inner lanes on roundabouts, because it is so dangerous. When I cycle I do sometimes run red lights if I am in a situation where: it won't hurt/endanger anyone and will make me much safer by getting me out of the flow of traffic. I think that should be put in the highway code as well. I really don't understand the sheer rage I have seen from motorists (usually in 4x4s, living up to the stereotype) on occasions when I have done this. Do they just resent me getting a head start?

There needs to be much more questions about other road users built into the highway code imho. And also advertising about e.g. cyclists and roundabouts, allowing an appropriate amount of space for cyclists. That could really save lives.

"Cyclists (and horseriders, skateboarders, joggers and so on) have an automatic right to use the road. Motorists are permitted to use the road so long as A) they have a driving licence, which can be withdrawn if they behave badly B) their car is safe, as shown by the MoT, and C) they pay vehicle excise duty, a charge based on the amount of pollution their car produces."

So any tw*t can ride a bike (which could be in any condition) on the road whereas you have to pass a test to drive a car (which is tested for roadworthiness each year)?

I personally think that anything a cyclist does to make his road journey safer is OK. Car and lorry drivers can be complete tossers in the way they treat cyclists - seeing them as nothing but a hindrance.. They are not, they are legitimate road users. I have every sympathy with the OP in that. It used to terrify me to see the way cars would squeesze up to my DH's back wheel when he used to cycle to work

However they are not legitimate pavement users. There may well be places where it's OK to use the pavement because it's wide or very empty but there are places where it simply isn't. Cyclists have to remember that they don't belong on the pavement and if they do use it they must be more careful than usual. A cylist may be very vulnerable, a pedestrian is just as if not more so.

surely all attitudes like this are going to do is deepen the gulf between arsehole drivers and arsehole cyclists while the rest of us just get on with it?

I have seen terrible things done by both.

I respect cyclists using the road, and I expect them to do the same with me.

90% of the time this happens.

Well this really does something for the reputation of cyclists:
"When I cycle I do sometimes run red lights if I am in a situation where: it won't hurt/endanger anyone".

If the light is red it means Stop, because to go on would be dangerous, for you or someone else, regardless of what vehicle you are using. My DH was knocked down by a cyclist going through a red light at a pedestrian crossing. This type of "oh, I only do it when it's safe" head-up-the-arse attitude really makes me . Rules are there for everyone, not an unenlightened few.

The vast majority of cyclists are sensible and law abiding, but don't expect people to be tolerant if you confess to such wankerage as that.

I don't run red lights if there are pedestrians crossing.

If there are no cars coming from any direction, why should cyclists wait until the cars behind them are moving as well, often inches away?

Exactly Armadillo. I am a cyclist, a motorist and a pedestrian. There are bad cyclists, there are bad motorists and there are moronic pedestrians who hop off pavements into the road without looking left and right. But I really think threads and arguments like these that posit one group against the other are downright unhelpful and just create more problems. I was cycling home the other day and another cyclist got themselves in a tricky position in between a bus and the pavement. They wanted me to move out of the way but I had stopped at a pedestrian crossing so couldn't. I was then abused by the other cyclist for not showing a bit of solidarity and 'that us cyclists need to stick together'. Rubbish. What we need to do is work out a safe and sensible way for us all to co-exist and a confrontational stance does nothing to help this.

Fluffyanimal, it's not as straightforward as that. 'I only do it when it's safe' is a perfectly rational position, and would be considered entirely normal and acceptable in a less car-centred country.

In many European countries - notably those that have much higher rates of cycling than here - it is considered normal and acceptable for a cyclist to turn left and red, so long as they won't cause a hazard to other road users by doing so. The rules of the road here are designed round car users, and don't necessarily make sense for cyclists OR pedestrians.

My dh is an avid cyclist and he comes accross some appalling drivers. Some cars get so close when overtaking him he can bang on the roof of teh car

And just the other day a lad wound down his window and tried to push dh off his bike.

I think the important word 'some' has been left out of many of these replies...

An ex-colleague of mine lived in Bristol and used to cycle everywhere in the city. On one occasion he got away from some lights just in front of a Volvo and the driver took exception. He followed him all the way down Gloucester Road inches from his back wheel, screaming abuse at him out of the window and several times touched the wheel with the bumper. The t*sser has children in his car too. Nice example to set

I cycle and I cycle with my children. We stop at red lights, indicate clearly, wear lights and reflcetive clothing. None of which stopped an idiot in a white van turning across in front of my daughter and I on a cycle lane. Dd1 hit the van - fortunately no harm was done. As a cyclist I am irritated and angered by bad cycling practice - but I'm terrified by bad driving.

I find that pretty hard to understand. What if you misjudge the safety of the situation? Would you have a legal leg to stand on if you caused an accident and your defence was "I thought it was safe", when there had been a traffic direction telling you what to do?

By the same token, if there is nobody crossing at a pedestrian crossing, should a motorist be allowed to proceed if they "think it is safe"?

I think the law would side with any pedestrian who saw a green man and suddenly decided to step out, when the road user had already decided it was safe and moved off through their red light. If red and green lights end up meaning nothing because they are subject to the interpretations of road users, then they don't do their job of ensuring safety.

what about from the point of view of a pedestrian? i live in london, roads are congested but their are cycle lanes, why when walking on the pavemement with my dd do i have to put up with get ot of the f**ing way from cyclist riding on the pavement, flying across red lights or zebra crossings. This, by the way happens frequently. I agree that in a car/bike accident the cyclist comes off worse but if a cyclist goes in to a pedestrian , the pedestrian comes off worse and the cyclist has no insurance.
i agree that there are some bad drivers out there but please acknowledge there are some bad cyclists as well.