Racist family members

[literaryloveaffair]

I am at a family reunion in a European country where there are family members in attendance from Israel, Germany, America. I have been treated to quite a few statements like:

1. Having a population that is 5% Muslim is one Muslim too many
2. UK is in danger of becoming a sharia law state due to the Muslims
3. It is fundamentally difficult for Muslims to integrate because most of them are religious fundamentalists who do much more than keeping ramadan and eating halal food
4. Immigrant children are causing lots of havoc in schools, the arab students throw chairs around
5. Low income immigrants are a burden on the state (including nurses) and importing nurses mean increasing the burden on the state cos they are low income.

Maybe i am sheltered but I am an immigrant and i have lived for 10 years in the UK and I have never heard so many statements said in any group of people. This is just the tip of the iceberg in just two days and frankly quite a small selection. I don't meet these family members very often so therefore don't hear that much. But it is shocking to me, is uk a much less racist society?

The bulk of the statements were said by my sisters' in laws' partners. It is unfortunate but my SILs made aliyah to israel (so they moved there after university without having ever worked in the UK and then tried to survive there). They then fell in love before they became 'established' in the new country and I suppose in the absence of jobs and the structure that provides, they fell in love with other 'unsettled people' who also came from similarly rich countries like america and netherlands. I suppose the chance of a potential partner being the kind of disaffected people who struggle to find job opportunities (and then pin the blame on immigrants/muslims/bogeyman of the time) is high. Its not that all people who move to Israel are like that (that is far from the truth), but I expect most people who move to a new country (esp one as expensive as Israel) would have some sort of plan (and probably hang out with other people who also had a plan). On the other hand, if you can't find a job, its quite easy to say you are a Zionist and move to Israel cos then a period of unemployment is easy to explain away (cos you are learning hebrew obviously and there is now a war on).

So I am wondering if perhaps such racism would be common in UK amongst people who are long term unemployed /or disaffected; but as I have always had a job, i don't really meet people in such circles. Or is UK really far less racist across all groups of people.

I've encountered these sorts of attitudes, and have lived in areas with high populations of Muslims.
It's all Bullshit. Muslims, like any other group of people can be good, or bad.

I've encountered a lot of good.

YANBU- but one can get this anywhere, including the UK- look at the Tommy Robinson supporters; and, on a slightly less blatant level, the tabloids.

Are the Israeli relatives perhaps equating all Muslims with Hamas (not an excuse of course)? Are the American ones Trump supporters?

BTW, I sometimes go on Quora, an international question-and-answer site, and have certainly encountered American posters who think that we are under Sharia law, 'ruled by Muslims', and even that Rishi Sunak is a Muslim.

The difference isn't in the attitude it's in the willingness to express it

People in UK usually keep it to behind closed door. Unless they are interviewed about if they will vote for or against brexit...

Do you read their newspapers? Because man. Some continetal really don't hold back. That then shapes opinions and whether or not you say them out loud even in a group rather than just with your spouse at home.

God you should meet my family OP. They're the archetype Brexit voting racist. From your post I'm guessing you're Jewish? My husband is (atheist) Jewish according to my mum 'lovely though, and you'd never know he was Jewish'. Obviously, they hate anyone brown the most.

I'm an immigrant to the UK but attended university here and live in a fairly international city where many sector specific based foreigners are employed in highly paid technical/engineering jobs. I can honestly say that the locals have been welcoming to the point of bending over backwards, not to be racist. I have been here for several decades and would say that the new anti Muslim sentiments seem to come from the older right wing Christian immigrant group who love Trump's anti abortion stance and people concerned about the waves of mostly male "asylum" seekers. I have lived in several countries and would definitely say that the UK, in the main, is NOT a racist country, but has parts that are.

yes i am jewish. we are a mixed group. DH's mum is a convert and he grew up with non jewish grandparents. I am also a convert and they accept me as jewish. we are also not all ashkenazi, there are mizrahi/half mizrahi in the group.

Most people we know are jewish people in north london. Pretty conservative on the whole but most of them have partners who are non British (British Jewry is so small) and they are often in professions and worked with people from all over the world. Was talking about immigration with the americans and I said in the UK, I scarcely know a couple who is Jewish and where both partners are from the same country! This includes our family, everyone including him and my sister in law is an international couple (American/British). My American BIL looked like he never thought of this before, he hasn't had to do the immigration stuff as he and my SIL live in Israel but i know they are thinking of moving back to USA as an option to reduce their financial burden. But he knows the requirements and that he would probably have to hire an immigration attorney! Based on my understanding, a big part of the current waiting times for spouse visas in USA is due to extra requirements on work visas which creates more work for the staff processing the applications. It was the same in UK too, often when they tighten restrictions on all immigrants, usually includes immigrants spouses including those of British nationals.

My husband is third/fourth generation British. He's kind of only Jewish by blood, not by culture/religion. None of us are religious, I would describe us as 'cultural Christians'. If anything it's me rather than him who tries to keep Jewish traditions alive. His parents were both atheist and adopted British traditions. His cousins are 'proper' Jews though. His only sibling also married out.

My mum is from an EU country, rather than British and regularly says stuff like that and worse. She is well-educated and retired.

UK is very racist
It is covered up well by some
Excused as not about racism by some
It is blatant in some.

But yes UK is a racist country.
82% are Caucasian
All countries will naturally bias toward the majority

Absolutely this

Sadly, the ignorant and intellectually lazy are happy to fall for the right-wing media and govt propganda that immigrants, especially the non-white and/or Muslim contingent are the cause of housing, nhs, social services, police and education problems, thus cleverly deflecting the fact that years of underfunding and undervaluing such services have caused the problems

The Times comment section is shockingly rascist against all Muslims - especially since the tragic events of 7th Oct - it’s been so extreme I assumed it’s bots. I no longer read the comments section on anything to do with Israel or Palestine, the hate is overwhelming.

as a brown skinned Muslim, its easy to feel upset by racism and discrimination but honestly, in a lot of cases racism goes hand in hand with poverty. large parts of Caucasian working class populations have lost out following deindustrialisation and the destruction of the unions by thatcher. the education system is a failure. they have to blame someone, and the right wing rags (and now social media) point them to Muslims. so they add 2+2 and make 22.

what passes me off though are educated, well off individuals who harbour racism. its really not hard to check facts and gain a balanced understanding of the world. but they wrap their bigotry around themselves like a nice warm shawl, so they can feel a sense of self righteousness and superiority.

My family are all well educated. The guy who was saying a lot of this stuff is doing a PhD in philosophy. However being educated doesn't mean you aren't left behind.. If you can't find a decent paying job you are worse off financially than a lot of working class people. Inequality has meant that a lot of people who look and act middle class are actually badly off. The ones in our family who have managed to live well and buy their homes are those who have corporate jobs as well as had help from family I. E. My dh cousin has a boyfriend whose grandma was kind enough to jointly buy a property with them (two flats so they can live in one.. My Dh's mum was kind enough to let us live with her for 3 years so we could buy a flat in london and progress in our careers in London.

So the people in our family in the same age group who aren't in corporate jobs struggle. One even has a baby and told my DH, having a child means going into debt and that is OK because it's normal. She is already planning second baby. They also don't really have family help cos they live abroad.

You can guess which people in which group are saying all this racist stuff.

Some of the stuff was said by older boomers in the family but as a whole more stuff was said by the younger people.

How is it harder to be middle class or well-educated and unemployed? That's quite offensive. Us povvos should be happy with our lot?

But anyway, I think the UK is becoming more racist in the sense that people feel braver about expressing these ideas
Probably always felt that way but were quieter about it.
I've heard people make openly racist statements more in the last 15 years than in the whole of my earlier life.

@literaryloveaffair academia is sadly famously underpaid. especially in the arts/social sciences. however, I think having had those educational opportunities and critical thinking skills does mean there is less of an excuse to be racist. I can see how it happens though. it is sadly very common, even in the younger generations.

I have definitely seen and felt a shift since 2016 referendum. People feel it's OK to say it more openly now. or in some unfortunate cases even physically attack/assault

Well based on the UK definition of working class, a tradesman or the owner of a small shop could be considered working class but be financially better off than a struggling graduate. Graduates often have student loans and can struggle more to find work.

My colleague 's husband would fit the mould, I don't think he has had the best education and his mum was illiterate. However he has Street smarts, his day job is as a data analyst in the NHS and he also has a business with his brother on the size and helps out at another family member's business. He earns enough to pay the mortgage on his 3 bed house in London by himself and also brings his wife on lots of exotic vacations. Compared to lots of struggling graduates the gulf is wide.

It's no longer about whether you have a degree or are considered middle class or a graduate, your social connections with others and demand for your skills set are a bigger deciding factor in your finances. Social connections because if you have family members you can pool resources with, it can make a difference.

I couldn't stand being around just white English people 24/7. I'm much happier in a mixed group – with Brits and Canadians, Germans, French people, etc. All my favourite lecturers at university were American and Canadian, and my favourite neighbours are Greek, Nigerian and Polish.

That said, I do think people's fears are being ignored. And that worries me. Because if you ignore those fears you risk the election not just of a vulgar buffoon like Trump, but of someone far nastier and more dangerous. This issue isn't going away. Africa has the highest birth rate in the world. In fact, their birth rate is so high the African population is going to double. As climate change gets worse, Europe could be overwhelmed by migrants. Not everyone wants that, and it doesn't make them evil monsters. The left have created an insane situation in which you either embrace mass immigration and the transformation of your society, or you are a fascist who wants 'racial purity'. There's no middle ground. It's crazy. Wanting to preserve a sense of identity, and to live where the majority of people are similar to you, is natural. It doesn't make you a racist or a fascist. And it doesn't mean you can't respect and celebrate diversity.

The tories have been promising to suppress immigration for years. We are now at record immigration levels. Given that we have failed at controlling immigration as the alternative is collapse of our social care system and lack of workers, perhaps the best way forward is to work at integrating these workers.

I told my family member that in my home country it is 15% Muslim and everyone is largely happy, they did a survey and 88% of the population believe Islam is compatible with the national culture. His country is 5% Muslim and when I said its not a lot, he said 5% is too high.

For reference London is 15% Muslim.

The thing is, there are some factual accuracies among those sweeping statements. In many UK towns (north of England especially) there are large groups of Pakistani Muslim immigrants - many second gen now - where integration into British society has been low and social problems are well publicised. You also see other groups of immigrants, again Muslim (coincidence or causation, who knows) where there's a lower social contribution. Prime example being Bangladeshis, less than 20% of whom pay any income tax and >50% receive state support.

Does that mean the UK is at risk of sharia law? Of course not. Does it mean that some people will feel concerned, displaced or resentful? Yes.