....to be unsurprised the BBC called the London Oratory a "prestigious private school" when it isn't?

[doorkeeper]

The London Oratory school is in the news because there's been a minor blaze there (nobody hurt) and a pupil has been taken in for questioning.

I was idly listening to PM on Radio 4, and they described the school as a "prestigious private school". Except it isn't, of course. It's a state-funded school. Except, again, it's functionally a free private school for posh and/or famous people that most ordinary mortals couldn't hope to get their kids into. I found this burst of accidental honesty from the BBC quite refreshing.

I'm sick of the posh London schools that are state-funded but that are effectively free private schools because of the way they massage their admissions. The now-disgraced former head of Holland Park School was taking HPS firmly in that direction, I know that a few other West London schools operate in the same way. I would love to see Ofsted - who were useless re the HPS scandal until it was too late - address this in some way. All children, even the ones whose parents aren't rich or famous, should have equal access to local schools, regardless of income, religion or parental connections.

AIBU to enjoy this bit of accidental honesty from the BBC?

Probably already been mentioned but 11.6% of kids at London Oratory have been on free school meals in the last 6 years.

Tony Blair's kids went there. It is a prestigious school and private by stealth.
Yes, having no private schools would be great if we could all have our kids at a state school as good as that one.

How can it be a private school if it’s free?

I grew up second generation Irish in Shepherd’s Bush and trust me a number of my Peers attended sacred heart and the oratory and trust me they did come from a deprived background. I also attended a very good catholic school and the only entry requirement any of us needed was to be brought up in the catholic faith. I have since moved out of the area but my youngest son was offered a place at the oratory and the only real entry requirement was the same

Sorry don’t know why the first trust me is there I tried to edit

@Boydd No one is saying there are no children from disadvantaged backgrounds. But the number of pupils on fsm is way below the average school. So the school population is on average from much less deprived backgrounds than your average school.

@IdaPolly the proportion this year is way way less than the average school.

I live next door to it and the whole thing was blown out of proportion, I couldn’t believe it made national news.
it’s a state school free to get in but cost once you your in do genuinely local people would know not to apply if they didn’t have the funds to keep up with the “ style of education” extra curriculum costs / uniform costs / musical instrument costs however the schools not exactly fancy including the facilities.
regarding the OTT response to the fire- that was ridiculous. No one harmed and part of building was damaged. My window faces on to the building and there wasn’t even any noticeable fire apart from the fire crew being there.

I think all children get an Oyster card so tube is free

I wouldn't say that's an entirely accurate perspective.

The facilities are first-rate for a state school. The place was renovated only a few years ago and is remarkably modern inside in comparison to a lot of other schools, which isn't necessarily 'right' or 'fair' but is ultimately how it is.

You're correct in saying that nobody was harmed. But there's pretty extensive damage to the inside of the building from my understanding. The entire library is gone, with not a single book surviving. Apparently a huge number of classrooms are also completely gone too, with the roof having also melted and burnt away.

I do think there'll be huge disruption to the kids and their education; it wouldn't surprise me if they had to go back to Covid-style online learning for a period of time. So I wouldn't at all say it was blown out of proportion.

You got a problem with catholic schools? I went to one and my kids are going to one right now. Lots of polish Catholics so you're talking bs saying eastern Europeans are ruled out.
They're not "prestigious posh free private schools" if they get a good reputation regarding grades and behaviour thats because most catholic parents instill good values

This is spot-on.

Why are you bitching about Catholic schools? You realise schools in wealthy areas and grammar schools also have lower than average fsm statistics right?
You've already shown you have no idea what you're talking about when you claimed eastern European catholics were ruled out 🤔I went to school in the 00s and a third of my class were polish
Not a single good reason to have a problem with catholic schools Has been mentioned on this thread just a bunch of bitter people Mad they couldn't get their kids into their local good Catholic school (which are good because catholic parents have high standards not because they're "free private schools")

Knowing kids at the London Oratory it is far from prestigious. It might have been once upon a time but it is now not able to be selective due to a court ruling 10+ years ago. Lots of very rough kids here too. I wouldn’t choose it myself.

Interestingly of the children I know of that have got in are generally from lower economic families and of lower academic ability. Some are doing ok others are really struggling which is no surprise. The level of behaviour of some kids is quite shocking but if you are top 50% you will probably do ok as with most excellent schools.

This. Lots of posts from people guessing what the system is at the Oratory. My three sons are there. Great school in many ways. There is no academic test for selection at 11. Testing is only done AFTER a place has been offered for setting purposes.

Tube is not free it’s a reduced rate with the 11-16 card.

Average A Level class size at the London Oratory is 20, often 32 in a GCSE class. No green spaces on site - just concrete. School closed this year for over two weeks for RAC and a day for flooding. Sound like many private schools you know?

But you haven't engaged with the data- and it's the schools own data, not something that anyone here has invented. Jassy has been so patient with you, explaining the data again and again, and you've just dismissed it with (ludicrous) claims that you have secret knowledge that trumps the actual school's own reported data.

Look, its great that your kids enjoy the school. But that doesn't change the data, or change how the school does - on average, even if there are low-income children that attend the school - disproportionately have fewer FSM children than other schools.

Leaving aside your rudeness, what you say about FSM and "wealthy areas" doesn't really pan out in this case. That's not how this school works (or indeed how London works - you might think "Kensington and Chelsea" counts as wealthy but it includes Grenfell, for example - and one of the closest schools to Grenfell has more than half the pupils on FSM).

One of the difficulties in this thread is that you, and others, have decided that comments about general trends are somehow negating your personal experience of individual families. The two don't cancel each other out.

As has already been explained, Catholic schools only outperform community schools when they are oversubscribed and therefore able to apply selection criteria. The impact of any selection criteria lead to less representative, and disproportionately better-off and higher-attaining school populations. When demographic factors are controlled for, the difference in performance vanishes (source: LSE).

The reality is that the requirements to get a certificate of practice already favour those children with parents who are organised, committed, relatively settled and relatively comfortable at dealing with officialdom. That automatically excludes children from the most chaotic homes (who are more likely to have behaviour issues and/or low prior attainment.

The FSM differential at the Oratory is so stark that it can't be explained away with "unlucky in the lottery" - which, being aware of the interaction of the PAN London system and the school's own admissions policy, you'll know only applies to around 100 places in category B4 (a number that will shrink if the new criteria are adopted for 2025.) And if, as you suggest, poorer and less bright children are choosing not to apply at all despite being eligible - that suggests that the school's apparent success is at least in part down to selling an image of exclusivity that leads some to feel it's not for people like them. (Which takes us back to OP's original thesis - you seem to have made her point for her.)

If the school did want to be more representative, there are many options available to it that other schools use, such as admission banding on prior attainment or a specific allocation of places for children on FSM.

I'm afraid I'm a bit impervious to the lazy debater's backstop of "you're just jealous" when presented with data or arguments that challenge their own narrative and that they do not have the tools to tackle. After years of faith education myself (in a different country) and currently gritting my teeth through a CofE primary as the least bad option available to us, I have zero desire to access Catholic education. I do like facts though, particularly when discussing public policy and its impacts, which is why I've tried to engage in this thread on the basis of evidence and data.

Faith schools in the state sector are really quite rare on an international basis, I wish people could understand how odd it can seem to immigrants like me that the state funds religious segregation and discrimination amongst children. How we got here is fascinating (and certainly not inevitable) but it is unusual, and the vociferousness of those defending the situation can sit very oddly.

@JassyRadlett you are a wonder, both at keeping your patience, and at explaining things very clearly, backed up with evidence. Thank you.