Genuine question re: immigration, not trying to be goady!

[questionsICantAskInRL]

This is a genuine question please don’t accuse me of trying to be goady or whatever the hell people say on mumsnet:

my question is countries like USA who literally took over the country from the natives therefore have no right being there, how can they talk about immigrants taking over their jobs, their country etc? Also the UK how can they talk about immigrants etc. when they invaded lots of countries with the British empire and took all the wealth and gems etc and killed thousands of people who opposed them then complain that the same countries try to come over to make their lives better.

thread title edited by MNHQ at OP's request.

You're right of course but apparently no-one is responsible for 'what their ancestors' did so it's therefore just a useless discussion. And also something something about other countries invaded other countries too so something something the empire wasn't that bad.

Because that's just the way it's always been - in every country - on every continent. People invading and then acting like they own the land. (And treating people like crap who try and move there too.)

As Crocodile Dundee said... ".........see those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on."

I think it's why some people get their knickers in a twist about immigration, and some even use words like "invasion".

Because they know what their ancestors did to the real indigenous populations of these countries.

People are tribal & competitive about protecting what they have, in short.

Some of the most "anti-immigrant" people are immigrants themselves, or are kids of immigrants. "It was ok to let my parents in, but now there are too many foreigners."

I've heard this attitude from the Hindi lady running corner shop about Albanians, and you see it in national politics from people like Suella Braverman about "irregular" immigration.

In the USA, our genocide of indigenous people is very remote in time and for me it was abstract, not personal to me until I did family history & could see the Puritans, pioneers and slave owners in my own family tree; most people don't know that part of their own history. I read all about boring Puritans in New England, in textbooks, when I was a kid. I knew they had 'Indian Wars' that G.Washington fought in, but I didn't understand what that meant. I didn't know the Puritans enslaved indigenous people then shipped them to Carribean (swap with African slaves). I didn't understand that it was my people who helped clear Indiana or the North Dakota prairies of indigenous people. I didn't know those cold-hearted pioneers were "my people" and even if I did know, I might have decided they were dead people I never met and wasn't responsible for, nothing to do with me.

As tale as old as time - being suspicious and hateful of newcomers.

Shocked that anyone can be anti immigrant here in Ireland too. There are literally millions of Irish everywhere in the world and we were treated like the lowest of the low . In fact there is still a level of anti Irish sentiment in the UK / yet you still get this hateful eejits giving out about people coming here.

One thing I only realised belatedly is how Europeans constantly conquered and subjugated neighbouring populations for centuries before they went out & colonised the world. There were between-kingdom wars that happened in Africa in the same way... India? China? Mediterranean, Afghanistan? Seems same everywhere. Aztecs, Maya & Incas did same to people who came before them.

Most of the population of the U.K. does not have a majority British ancestry, so most of us would be leaving.

Because countries change + The ones who 'invaded other countrys' were not also funding the public health system/welfare payments/caring for the elderly ect. It was a very small group of in-it-for-themselves who could afford to sail around the world stealing shit like land & valuables like gold - should I have to pay for it ? Not a chance. Does it often get thrown around like we were all there ? Absolutely!

Thank you all for your insights. It’s a very interesting topic. No I’m not new to mumsnet lol! Been here for a while but created a new and fitting username as I will be asking lots of different questions which I can’t in RL. Nothing controversial, just genuine questions I want to discuss. That’s really interesting about British history. I’ll confess being British myself I don’t know much apart from obvious Roman Empire/Viking etc. I need to research more and find out my family tree

@lljkk thats very insightful (sorry if I keep using this word, I’m still hungover and can’t think straight). Thank you for that. It’s made me want to research my own family tree

I'm reminded of when in New York some years ago - as we were waiting to cross at a busy junction a 'red neck' type with his young son referred to a miscreant driver who was jumping the lights as a 'fucking immigrant invader', based on the driver's darker skin!

The irony.

I did find it interesting when the stabbings in Dublin happened and the garda commissioner, Drew Harris said that being born in the UK and NI doesn't give you more of a right to housing etc and and decried patriotism/ moderate nationalism. I think that we then become the only country to not work in the best interests of it's citizens (I know that's the case under a Tory government). We should be concerned with population numbers. We shouldn't have unrestricted immigration. Liverpool is in crisis because of underfunding and placing asylum seekers here has escalated that. If we don't have a national sense of belonging etc then our young men will find it somewhere and there's many groups waiting to fill the gap. There's lots of problematic opinions in the US. I don't like the creeping in of acceptance of religious extremism and how it's ignored.

Mixture of ignorance, stupidity and short memories.

Every country has the right to control immigration, even the US. Allowing everyone into your country reduces quality of life for everyone and can change the culture, which people don't like. YABU.

I don't even understand why you're comparing the UK to the USA when we haven't invaded any countries for 100+ years. Are we supposed to all self flagellate forever? See above.

What I do find completely baffling, is white Americans throughout history who have hated indigenous Americans and blacks people who they brought over. That is actually something that doesn't make sense and is indefensible.

Probs because all that was generations ago and nothing to do with them. Their logic is rooted in the here and now. Also, being thick goes some way to explain it.

I know right?! The hypocracy seems to be lost on most though.

Yawn.

Op you are talking about every country on Earth. Countries must control their borders for the sake of their resources and security. If they don’t do this they are not a country, every country in the world has an obligation and a duty to control their borders and conserve their resources. When they fail to do this it causes suffering. It would also be very foolish for countries to make rules based on the situation as it was in the 1600’s.

Current overpopulation and limited resources (water in the Middle East for example). Countries with schemes for social welfare somehow needs to be factored in to the argument.
movement prior to government benefits was less problematic.
you came with nothing and either established a service or died.

why would you sound ignorant if you pointed out basic facts? what was done to the indigenous peoples of the Americas, many African nations, Australia and New Zealand is genocide. even to this day, they are treated as second class citizens in their own countries.

we sadly cannot change the past, but we can support them now to help preserve their cultures, languages and peoples.

Drew Harris never mentioned the UK or NI. He's the garda commissioner, lives and works in Ireland, not the UK (although he's from NI.)

Yep this. ^ Some people act like the UK is the only country to have some people who don't like incomers. Some other countries are far worse, and far more people in those countries are against incomers than the UK is. The UK is NOT a racist country, no matter how some people try to make out it is. (Not aimed at the OP by the way.)

I would imagine it's because the people doing the complaining are not the people who did the conquering and they either don't know the history or are of the opinion that they didn't do the conquering, enslaving and murdering so it's irrelevant to their position on immigration.

We're all descended from immigrants. It's just a case of how many generations.

Nice thread!