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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think the new rules on no fault eviction - means people won't want to be landlords?

267 replies

DragonMama3 · 22/12/2023 19:31

What do you think?

OP posts:
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 24/12/2023 14:56

We live on the outskirts of a large university city with a lot of research institués, so many postgrads and doctoral students. A four bedroom house in our street has been let to groups of four postgrads on an annual basis for years, they each had a bedroom and share the rest.

The owner told me she was giving it up as the new regulations had decreased the profitability ( which wasn’t huge) and increased the admin and hassle. She sold it to an overseas family who have installed one of their family, a single mother and her one child . That’s fine, obviously. But I don’t see how it is somehow a social improvement. Fewer people live there now.

SOxon · 24/12/2023 15:12

/cont… the conclusion drawn is that landlords are selling up en masse it would seem, too much of a coincidence otherwise, families desperate for housing, as quoted on a other thread on homelessness, now having to endure 20 weeks!
wait to be processed, in temporary hostels, hotels, b&b, 2months notice legally applied is not long enough

Paradise404 · 24/12/2023 16:22

Tatumm · 24/12/2023 11:42

In the Guardian today: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/dec/24/evictions-in-uk-hit-record-high-but-less-than-1-of-landlords-convicted

I’d like to see much greater resources and massive fines / criminal records for bad landlords. Licensing should be compulsory. I used to rent when I was young and even the better landlords were all about the money at the end of the day. An essential need should not be down to the whims of people seeking to invest.

You're mixing up several different things here.
'All about the money' - why do you think landlords shouldn't make any profit? Do you also expect other essentials like food and water to be provided at a loss?
'Whims of people investing'? - Entirely true, but the government disagrees with you. That's why, instead of building new houses with RTB money. Or even stopping RTB altogether. They opened up the private rental sector.

Of course bad LL's should be punished but that's not the main issue. It's a lack of choice. Many people stay in substandard accommodation simply because they cannot afford to move out. Large fines and banning a 'bad landlord' only leads to the tenants being kicked out - where are they supposed to go? You can't take the house away from the LL. It's still their property.

Furthermore large companies are even worse - they will turn it into a long drawn out legal battle only lining the pockets of lawyers.

The ONLY solution to this is more housing. And you know it. Not demonising landlords to take attention away from the rela issue.

Musntapplecrumble · 24/12/2023 19:29

The ONLY solution to this is more housing. And you know it. Not demonising landlords to take attention away from the rela issue.
Yup.

DragonMama3 · 24/12/2023 19:32

How many houses have been built? The ones near us were 500 -750k. Average wage here is 25 K

OP posts:
YankeeDad · 24/12/2023 20:15

Thank you, mumsnet users, for reminding me why it would be a terrible idea for me to invest my retirement savings into providing decent housing at a fair market rent to people who are not in a position to buy. I’d get called a parasite or worse, while receiving little to no income to fund my life in retirement.

Instead I will continue to keep all of my savings and invested into stocks and bonds, thereby paying much less tax, having much less hassle, and collecting a higher return than I could earn from offering housing.

The vilification of small, private landlords is an excellent distraction to take attention away from the much lower taxation in the UK of income and gains received from not working, compared to the taxation on income from working. Private landlords actually pay pretty high tax rates due to the non deductibility of so many real business expenses for tax purposes. Work also gets taxed very heavily. Income and gains from securities investing, however, starts at lower headline tax rates, which can then easily be brought even lower through a multitude of deductions and very plain vanilla tax wrappers such as ISAs and pensions.

Goodlard · 24/12/2023 21:11

@Iminpatchinghell you are making no fucking sense!

If private landlords aspire to councils, they're shit landlords, 1000000s aren't! But councils are shocking, I can assure you that councils employed people that installed boilers that are totally illegal in grenfell, so why do you want private landlords to good to that?

ThreeFeetTall · 24/12/2023 21:25

@YankeeDad could you not find an investment fund that could invest your money in funding social or other housing? Thereby benefitting you in lower taxes etc but also helping people find housing?

Goodlard · 24/12/2023 21:28

ThreeFeetTall · 24/12/2023 21:25

@YankeeDad could you not find an investment fund that could invest your money in funding social or other housing? Thereby benefitting you in lower taxes etc but also helping people find housing?

Great idea.... not possible.

YankeeDad · 24/12/2023 21:58

ThreeFeetTall · 24/12/2023 21:25

@YankeeDad could you not find an investment fund that could invest your money in funding social or other housing? Thereby benefitting you in lower taxes etc but also helping people find housing?

@ThreeFeetTall most investments funds of which I am aware would have all of the same costs as direct investment, plus an extra layer of management fees, plus there is often extra, punitive taxation where a company owns residential housing. With a fund I would avoid the direct personal hassle but I would expect an even lower return than with direct investment in any given location.

Also, it would be very difficult to be confident that the investment fund was treating tenants fairly, since their only incentive is to make money for me and themselves. Adding a layer of abstraction does not mean removing the issues, it just means I do not see them. “Professional” management can just mean maximising short-term revenue and minimising short-term costs. Well-done professional management might be possible on a long-term basis so properties will be kept up well enough to keep good tenants who treat the properties well and pay the rent. But it is so much harder to verify in a fund than with direct ownership. I think it’s more likely to be available from semi-professional private landlords who may own 5-20 properties, live on the income, have personal connections with tradesmen who do solid work at reasonable prices in order to get the steady flow of work, and know the properties personally. But such landlords might be the most likely ones to get put off by a total elimination of Section 21, and they certainly will be the most affected by non-deductibility of mortgage interest, which will limit their ability to grow the portfolio and provide more housing.

No, the financial, social and lifestyle incentives for a retirement investor are, at the moment, just too strongly skewed against investing in decent housing for people who need it, and every time I think about it as an idea, I read something about the situation for landlords in the UK and am reminded why I should not do it.

I do agree with one of the PPs who suggested that rather than eliminating no-fault “evictions”, it would be much better to add a longer delay period so that a person who wants to get their own property back and use it for something else can do so but only after a reasonable delay so that the tenant can find somewhere else. If the tenant is enjoying below-market rent and cannot find anything comparable - well, just as I have no moral obligation to lend money to the government for 2% when gilts are yielding 4%, I also think I would have no moral obligation as a landlord to provide housing at below-market rent for an indefinite duration. Inflation exists, prices for everything tend to go up over time, including for a landlord’s personal expenses, and I think it is entirely fair for rents to rise with inflation or with costs. If wages do not keep up, then it is the wages that are unfair, not the rent. I am a tenant right now due to circumstances, and I will have nothing to say about it if the landlord puts through the RPI annual rent increases to which they are entitled.

Renting property out is risky for the owner, and I think it is fair for the owner of a property that is well-maintained and happens to be fully occupied for the year to earn more than they would on a “risk free asset”, which to be comparable to housing would need to be inflation hedged - so I would use an index-linked gilt as a proxy. If an index-linked gilt yields 1 percent plus inflation, then I think a rental property needs to yield about 2.5-3 percent plus inflation, after all costs including an accrual for the big things that need replacing every 10-20 years, in order to be worth the trouble and the risk.

I do fully support protecting fair treatment for tenants, I just do not support stuffing it to the landlords as a punishment for having worked hard, paid their taxes, and somehow saved enough money to buy a rental property. For example, I do think mortgage interest expense on a rental property should be tax deductible, just as interest expense is for any other sort of business. On the other hand, to reduce speculation and market instability, I would support a regulatory requirement for a stonking big deposit on buy-to-lets, perhaps as much as 40 percent. Having a big chunk of their own money tied up in a property might help a landlord to understand it is a responsibility as well, whereas buying entirely on borrowed money is unhealthy for everyone.
I also think that one useful regulation to protect tenants from being stuck in subpar properties and having no recourse, would be in addition to having a longer standard notice period to get a property back from a tenant (maybe 6 months for a long-term lease), to have a basic set of quality standards that every residential landlord must meet, and to allow a tenant to pay the rent money into an escrow account instead of to the landlord if the standards are not met, with the money to be released to the landlord only if they fix the issues. That would create an accumulating incentive for the landlord to fix the problem PDQ, provided there was an efficient process for settling disagreement on whether it was fixed or not. That could be done by a regulator, funded by a levy on landlords, which would increase the needed rental charges somewhat but which need not be all that expensive if the regulator were pragmatic and efficient. I think that would do much more to improve the quality of the rental offering than making it impossible for a landlord to get their property back.

App13 · 26/12/2023 07:23

WillowCraft · 22/12/2023 21:31

What a stupid statement. Of course it does. Housing is much cheaper in parts of the country where no one wants to live (or go on holiday). If all landlords put their properties on the market tomorrow, housing prices will eventually drop. As a result some tenants will be able to afford to buy. Not all obviously but more than currently.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67750565

Have a read Willowcat. Today's news.

Tatumm · 26/12/2023 11:44

Paradise404 · 24/12/2023 16:22

You're mixing up several different things here.
'All about the money' - why do you think landlords shouldn't make any profit? Do you also expect other essentials like food and water to be provided at a loss?
'Whims of people investing'? - Entirely true, but the government disagrees with you. That's why, instead of building new houses with RTB money. Or even stopping RTB altogether. They opened up the private rental sector.

Of course bad LL's should be punished but that's not the main issue. It's a lack of choice. Many people stay in substandard accommodation simply because they cannot afford to move out. Large fines and banning a 'bad landlord' only leads to the tenants being kicked out - where are they supposed to go? You can't take the house away from the LL. It's still their property.

Furthermore large companies are even worse - they will turn it into a long drawn out legal battle only lining the pockets of lawyers.

The ONLY solution to this is more housing. And you know it. Not demonising landlords to take attention away from the rela issue.

You should learn to read properly. Where did I say that landlords should not make a profit? Of course they can, but let’s not be naive here - making money is the primary aim of owning a rental property if you’re a private landlord.

If there are no profits to be had, landlords either cut corners with the service they provide, usually to the detriment of their tenants, or sell up.

Something as essential as housing should not just be left to the free market. It’s lazy governance by the government and clearly it’s failing thousands of families.

Dutch1e · 26/12/2023 13:41

brainworms · 22/12/2023 20:50

We're talking about landlords though, so don't try and derail.

True. And even if we were talking about all businesses no-one wrings their hands over the "vital service" being provided by the local bike-hire place, or wails that without bike-hire shops all the bikes will vanish!

Getting a bank loan to buy up all the bikes in order to hire them back out at extortionate prices is parasitic, nothing more.

BTL landlords are the scum of the earth in the same league as the pricks who hoarded more food than they could eat at the beginning of the pandemic lockdowns, leaving others to stare at empty shelves

Paradise404 · 26/12/2023 14:39

Tatumm · 26/12/2023 11:44

You should learn to read properly. Where did I say that landlords should not make a profit? Of course they can, but let’s not be naive here - making money is the primary aim of owning a rental property if you’re a private landlord.

If there are no profits to be had, landlords either cut corners with the service they provide, usually to the detriment of their tenants, or sell up.

Something as essential as housing should not just be left to the free market. It’s lazy governance by the government and clearly it’s failing thousands of families.

It's you who needs to learn to read properly - and understand how private businesses actually work.
You seem to think landlords should have more lofty ideals instead of being 'all about the money'. Why? They are a private business. If you think housing is too essential to be mainly provided by private business then it should be provided by the government instead, which is what I said, and how it used to be.

But the other issue is currently. LL's are selling up and this is causing a shortage of rental properties. Rents are shooting up, but not only that even people who can afford to pay the high rents are struggling because of a lack of properties!

Even if gov imposed a rent cap that's not going to make more magically appear.

So what's the solution?

Paradise404 · 26/12/2023 14:44

Dutch1e · 26/12/2023 13:41

True. And even if we were talking about all businesses no-one wrings their hands over the "vital service" being provided by the local bike-hire place, or wails that without bike-hire shops all the bikes will vanish!

Getting a bank loan to buy up all the bikes in order to hire them back out at extortionate prices is parasitic, nothing more.

BTL landlords are the scum of the earth in the same league as the pricks who hoarded more food than they could eat at the beginning of the pandemic lockdowns, leaving others to stare at empty shelves

It's the government who should have been buying properties. Especially with the money they got after selling off social housing.
Instead they opened it to BTL. and did not stop right to buy. Social housing tenants are laughing all the way to the bank.
The amount of BTL does not matter if people had other choices and did not NEED to rent privately instead gov decimated social housing stock and decided to let private LL's run the show.

There will always bee a need for rented housing. The question here is. Who should be providing this service?

Even if house prices drop like a stone many won't be able to buy... bear in mind we don't have 100% mortgage anymore... also many like transient workers etc CAN'T buy where are they going to live?

App13 · 26/12/2023 14:45

Paradise404 · 26/12/2023 14:39

It's you who needs to learn to read properly - and understand how private businesses actually work.
You seem to think landlords should have more lofty ideals instead of being 'all about the money'. Why? They are a private business. If you think housing is too essential to be mainly provided by private business then it should be provided by the government instead, which is what I said, and how it used to be.

But the other issue is currently. LL's are selling up and this is causing a shortage of rental properties. Rents are shooting up, but not only that even people who can afford to pay the high rents are struggling because of a lack of properties!

Even if gov imposed a rent cap that's not going to make more magically appear.

So what's the solution?

Edited

Youre wasting your time and energy here.

Paradise404 · 26/12/2023 15:02

App13 · 26/12/2023 14:45

Youre wasting your time and energy here.

Maybe, but I have nothing better to do atm. So lazy and bed is warm and cosy. Plus there are intelligent people like @YankeeDad on here.
I've also got a lot of experience not sure about other PP but I've lived in all sorts of rental properties over a decade or so. And run the numbers vs buying.

Ultimately profit as a LL depends on your luck with tenants plus timing of the property market. Whatever the reason for moving out there's no issue if supply is plentiful. A 'good' landlord doesn't routinely kick people out to get new higher paying tenants and they can raise the rent to market rates although at specified intervals only.

The most shitty rentals I stayed in were run by big companies/'portfolio' landlords so I'm laughing at the people thinking these would solve issues. The best were where owners had a personal connection, for a few it was their property before moving in with a partner, bought with a family member etc very responsive, reasonable rent and got my deposits back in FULL no contest.

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