Couldn’t think of a comeback!

[Shakeylegs]

I was out last night. Conversation with friend (female) turned to crime. She said that women who get drunk and wear skimpy clothes should be careful in case they end up the victims of crime.

I said that sounded like victim blaming. She said that it wasn’t, and that she didn’t blame the victims at all, but that if she wanted to stop her house being burgled she’d not open all the doors and windows. She said that this was the same.

In the moment I couldn’t think of a comeback but I’m sure there is one. What could I have said…? Or was she actually right?!

Are you in a roundabout way trying to say that she thinks victims of rape are asking for it?

Well she's fairly right, but it's not just women, if men get drunk and are walking alone they are likely to be a victim of crime as well. No one should put themselves in a vulnerable position, but I suspect everyone has done at some point. If you are a victim you shouldn't be blamed, but that's not a reason to not keep yourself as safe as you can. Avoid dark alley ways at night, walk with a friend if possible, etc, etc, the same for men, women and children.

She means rape and sexual assault, doesn’t she, not “crime”?
Does she have any evidence that women who wear skimpy clothing and drink get raped any more than those who don’t? Because I’m not aware of any such evidence.
Is she aware that men rape men, children, babies, women wearing burkas, dead people and animals? Dressing modestly and being teetotal is no protection whatsoever against sexual violence.

I think she said something like ‘beaten up or raped’.

Good point about the fact that victims are victims regardless of what they’re wearing. That would’ve been a good thing to say!

Does she think the same about men who are victims of crime?

I don’t think she does think that. I think she was just saying that making yourself vulnerable (eg by getting drunk) isn’t wise when there are would-be attackers about.

Which I kind of get, in the same way as I don’t leave the front door wide open in case there are burglars about.

But I want to be free to get drunk without someone saying ‘Well… she was stupid!’ if I end up getting attacked!

i should’ve asked!

Rape victims' clothing displayed to prove clothing choice doesn't cause rape | The Independent | The Independent

If you are a victim you shouldn't be blamed, but that's not a reason to not keep yourself as safe as you can. Avoid dark alley ways at night, walk with a friend if possible

She said that women who get drunk and wear skimpy clothes should be careful in case they end up the victims of crime

She didn't mention not walking down a dark alley though. She said women shouldn't wear what they want because men just can't help themselves and women shouldn't put the poor men folk in that position

Men rape and abuse animals, children,women ,other men, old women,nuns, disabled women, women in a coma, women at work , their mothers, wives/partners, daughters,aunts,nieces, granddaughters, patients,pupils ,clients hell even corpses. What's her brilliant idea for stopping all of that?

Stranger rape is a small proportion of rape. Sadly , most women are raped by someone they know(a lot of the time by a partner or ex partner) in situations where they should be safe.

I doubt most victims of rape and sexual assault were scantily dressed.

It’s just a stick to beat women with and to try to blame women.

If I’m walking in the dark, and a man is walking behind me, I’m still scared and on hyper alert regardless of what I’m wearing.

Similarly, drunk women are not a free pass for men to rape. But given men are incapable of doing the decent thing, then women do need to be on their guard and remain lucid and aware of our surroundings.

This was what I was struggling with though. Cos you could show a load of locked houses that got burgled, but it’s still advisable to lock your house.

Which I kind of get, in the same way as I don’t leave the front door wide open in case there are burglars about.

The day when women have the option of leaving their body behind in a safe for protection, that will be an accurate analogy. Until then it's a false equivalence.

The only thing you can do to always be safe is to never be in contact with a man (any man).

I do think you can do things to make yourself less vulnerable although that doesn’t mean those who don’t do them deserve what happens. I don’t cut through parks etc in the dark or wear headphones without being aware of my surroundings or walk with phone in hand etc. I did grow up in a then rough part of London though so a lot is habit.

The real issue with this narrative is that it never ever stops there (which would be bad enough). It always becomes about the woman's actions, where she was,why she was there ,what did she do,how did she do it,why did she do it regardless of the circumstances. It always ,always becomes the woman's fault and what she should've done or not done .

But is there any evidence that women in skimpy clothes are more likely to get raped? When I was raped I was wearing a baggy T-shirt and baggy trousers, I wasn’t dressed skimpily at all. Most rapists are opportunists and they're not seeing their victim as anything other than an opportunity for sex, I don’t believe any man willing to rape a woman is fussy enough that he is only going to rape a woman dressed in skimpy clothes, I don’t believe rapists care what their victims look like. When I started crying during my assault the rapist just pushed a pillow over my face and held it there until he was done so he didn’t have to see me. He wasn’t raping me because of how I looked or who I was, he raped me because he is a rapist and we ended up in a situation in which he was able to overpower me.

The analogy of locking your house to avoid burglars vs covering up so you don’t get raped is only really valid if there is evidence that women who are fully covered up are less likely to be raped by rapists than women in scantily clad clothing. I have never seen evidence of this kind which makes me think the analogy is ridiculous. If a rapist is willing to dehumanise and overpower a woman in order to rape her do you really think he is going to be put off by needing to rip off an extra layer of clothing? It’s not the same as locking your house at all; locking your house makes it difficult for an intruder to enter compared to leaving the door wide open. Wearing or not wearing a coat/ full length trousers etc doesn’t make it any easier or harder to overpower the victim and rape her. The analogy is not a good one.

Of course victims are victims regardless, but there is such a thing as not putting yourself in vulnerable positions to begin with. That's not victim blaming.

Being in a relationship with a man puts you in a vulnerable position. 46% of rapes are by an intimate partner.

No woman is assaulted because of what she wears or does. That's wholly on her assailant. Every single time.
However, I would not hesitate to advise my DD to avoid walking home alone if very drunk, or to wherever possible wear a big coat and cover her hair when walking home alone so as to be less noticeable as a loan female. Just as I wouldn't hesitate to advise her not to invite an unknown male back to her house, or get into a strange man's car.

Also the skimpy clothes narrative perpetuates the myth that rape is about sex ,attractiveness, women seducing and tempting men into raping them. It's not, it's about power,control,abuse and often hate.

Those narrative affects women through a two pronged attack(always an attack on the victim). If she's in any way attractive (through physical attributes and/or clothes) then it's her fault. If she isn't conventionally attractive then we have the "she should grateful for the attention " crowd or "he couldn't have done it because no one would want to have sex with her". I honestly can't decide which is worse. All this does is create more excuses/defence for the perpetrators and added attacks on the victims.

Well said.

Women will be attacked and raped regardless of what they wear. Women do have to think about where they go, who they are with and how safe they are to try to protect themselves from being attacked. Of course they shouldn't have to do this and if a women is attacked she is not to blame, the person who attacked her is??

I'd have probably said you are more likely to be attacked by someone you know so your locked doors won't really help you.

“Statistically the number 1 cause of rape is rapists. It’s the cause of 100% of rapes”

The perpetrator of the crime is always responsible for their actions and it is never the victim's fault.

However, it is true that you can take sensible steps to minimise your risk of becoming a target. You wouldn't walk down a busy street waving huge bundles of cash around - nothing may happen of course, but equally you'd be putting yourself at risk of being robbed.

Both things can be true at once. The perpetrator is the criminal and the victim is the victim, but the victim can take reasonable steps to help ensure their safety. This may not always help of course, as someone hell bent on commiting a crime will do so - but it's foolish to suggest taking sensible precautions (not becoming too drunk, ensuring you avoid walking around alone in isolated areas at night etc) is 'victim blaming'.

When I was a lot younger (about 19/20) I was told if I went to a certain high street that was well known for prostitutes to tout for trade, and if I wore tight black leggings then I was “asking” to get unwanted attention. Actually, though I nodded and agreed I didn’t actually agree and change my dress as an acquaintance of mine who wore jogging bottoms/jeans, sweatshirt in the same area always got unwanted attention so it doesn’t matter what the hell you wear it’s what’s in the perpetrator’s minds.

It doesn’t stop eg my DM sometimes trying to implying to me that Sarah Everard was “asking for it” walking where she was etc. I got really angry with my normally sensible, open viewed DM over this. I do think sometimes people say things without thinking or looking into the facts and then they just look stupid.

I posted here recently about the brilliant long walk home Hollyoaks storyline. Why women should be shamed for where they’re walking/what time/why/if they’ve drunk alcohol in this day and age really angers me.