Couldn’t think of a comeback!

[Shakeylegs]

I was out last night. Conversation with friend (female) turned to crime. She said that women who get drunk and wear skimpy clothes should be careful in case they end up the victims of crime.

I said that sounded like victim blaming. She said that it wasn’t, and that she didn’t blame the victims at all, but that if she wanted to stop her house being burgled she’d not open all the doors and windows. She said that this was the same.

In the moment I couldn’t think of a comeback but I’m sure there is one. What could I have said…? Or was she actually right?!

The thing is those sensible precautions 1.apply to men too (and they're more likely to be attacked -by other men-) and 2.apply for other types of crime/harm as well.
But nope, it's always advice for women and regarding rape(and only a certain type of rape). Why is that?

Also this bullshit of walking alone in the dark. So no non driving woman can have a job past 4/5 o'clock (or early morning,or night shifts)in the winter unless she has a chaperone? Otherwise she's obviously not taking "sensible" precautions.

I agree with you to a certain degree but eg when I was attacked and mugged I was in an area (not that dark, a usual cut through), I’d thought I was “safe” but there were (either known or unknown to me) a huge gang crime issue there where they targeted women on the high street, on mopeds/bicycles and it was only after the local police got involved as it was getting out of hand, that things stopped. I knew all about not being too drunk, not walking in isolated areas but when a gang and in my case 2 of them, deliberately target a woman, or in another friend’s case 4 of them jumped on her as she walked round the corner to where her car was parked, what are you supposed to do? There were taxi offices at both stations (1 was short lived) but even if I’d got the tube and bus (a “safer” way to get home), I was still crossing a road and walking 2-3 minutes home. Was I supposed to get a taxi (from central London) home or just not go out?!

okay so first of all your friend was obviously being disingenuous by saying 'crime' when she meant 'rape' (or SA) because how would what you drink or wear have any impact on whether you were the victim of identity fraud, burglary, car theft, etc.?

But if you want a logical rebuttal to your 'locked house' comparison, it would be if, say, 5% of burglaries occurred when a house was unlocked. So okay, yes, taking precautions like locking your house might make you slightly less likely to become a victim of those type of burglaries. So perhaps not getting drunk to excess or walking home alone (I think the clothing issue is a bit of a red herring) could be a sensible precaution to lower your chances of being a victim of that specific type of crime (rape or sexual assault by a stranger)

The problem with that line of arguing is that
a) It doesn't do anything to lower your chances of being a victim of the far more prevalent type of crime (if the majority of burglaries were break-ins to locked houses i.e. the majority of crime to women INCLUDING SA/RAPE has no link to what they were wearing/drinking/doing)

b) It blames the victim rather than the perpetrator and implies people 'deserve' to be victims - even if your friend accidentally left her house unlocked would you say 'Ah well you deserved it' or 'Shit that's awful I'm so sorry?'

c) It focusses on stopping you as an individual being a victim rather than stopping the crime, full stop. An 'I'm all right Jack' mentality. So if everyone locked their homes a burglar wouldn't just say 'ah fair play, they've outwitted me, time for me to get off down the job centre.' They'd just break into more locked homes. In the same way a rapist wouldn't just not rape if all women were fully covered head to toe in a burqa and never left the house at night, (and would that even be a way you would want to live?) they would just either move onto women who couldn't protect themselves (the homeless, very young, or those with mental health problems) or move to the other type of rape/SA (their friends, family, children, etc.)

tl;dr - your friend's a twat.

I'd have looked her up and down (whatever she was wearing), and say she should be careful as she wasn't wearing a nun's habit, so obviously she was taking a big risk.

The part she's missing is that men and women lock their doors, lock their cars etc. But only women have to regulate what they wear outside, apparently. Men take equal responsibility for the prevention of all crime, except sexual crime.

That’s a helpful rebuttal, thanks! But she isn’t a twat.

Putting yourself into a vulnerable position by getting drunk when you're out among strangers does put you at higher risk of being taken advantage of in a number of ways. I wouldn't say someone deserves to be a victim because they made an unwise choice, but neither would I run that risk. Not sure she needed a comeback, really.

I’ll add something else here… two local parks, one is huge and there “is” lighting in the central areas of the parks but not all. To get to one part with light you have to walk through an area with no or few lights. There are side pathways with no lighting whatsoever yet they lead from the station to another area of town. Then the local park behind the supermarket and next to a safe council estate with mostly houses and flats, no lighting whatsoever. I’d happily pay more council tax for both those areas. I mean I don’t mind using the streets nearby which are lit but what if you live in the estate where it seems you have to do a long walk round it in lit areas and not use the cut throughs which should be safe. Councils really don’t seem to think this through.

Sorry but anyone who blames rape victims for getting raped and thinks they were asking for it/ should have done more to prevent it by dressing more modestly is definitely a twat!

You know, if a man gets blackout drunk and gets mugged, I don't think I've ever heard of the police saying, well, you brought it on yourself.

So let's see reasonable/sensible precaution s:

Women should never drink. Yes it's always drunk, but guess what? Even a glass of wine with a meal can be used against you. Best not to drink at all.

Never be outside the house alone when it is dark. Regardless of jobs,commitments, chores,emergencies.

Never wear attractive clothes. Ofc what is considered attractive is subjective and victimology differs, but never mind that.

Never wear anything except practical,flat footwear.

That's from the personal responsibility crowd. It already makes the whole sensible/responsible actions look ridiculous.

Now let's look at the majority of rapes.

Never go on a date.

Never drink anything that doesn't come from your own bottle /can and never leave it unattended. If you do you must get a new one.

Never be in a relationship.

Never be alone with male relative,friend or acquaintance.

Never spend the night ,go to a party ,on a trip etc. where any males might be around.

Never work somewhere with other males and if you do,never ever be alone with them.

Never accept a lift from a male.

Never accept to be walked home by a male.

Never allow a male in your home.

Never go to the home of a male.

Don't walk,don't walk the dog,don't run, don't go to the gym (definitely don't get changed there if you're daft enough to go) regardless of the time of day. Don't try on clothes in shops either or use public toilets.

Drive. But if you drive ,you can't get out of the car unless you're in a well lit,populated area.

Don't take cabs.

Don't take buses or trains. Especially if crowded. Especially if deserted. Pick your poison.

Don't stop for the police.

Don't spend the night in hospital. Or go for checkups , or be on a ward , or be in any way incapacitated or vulnerable.

There you're safe now! You're making all the sensible,responsible choices. What a life!

I apologise if I missed some in the second category, there's just too many to list them all.

Unfortunately if you suggest that people take personal responsibility for their welfare in todays world you will be accused of victim blaming.

Of course you should be able to walk the streets at 3.00 am wearing only nipple tassels and a pair of crocs and be completely pissed up, but common sense tells you that you should never get into that state in the first place. But so many do and then wonder why they were attacked.

Except that never happens ,does it?

easylikeasundaymorn

I have no idea how it did that. Or why.

easylikeasundaymorn
because how would what you drink or wear have any impact on whether you were the victim of identity fraud, burglary, car theft, etc.?

I dunno: I knew a bloke who got his new Aston Martin stolen in London because he got so drunk he couldn't get the key into the ignition (thank goodness!) and so hailed a taxi and went home, leaving the car with the door open and the key on the seat, or so we assume. It certainly wasn't there when he worked out what had happened and went back for it!

I suspect if he hadn't got totally stocious he would not have been the victim of car theft.

The whole point was that she said she wasn’t victim blaming. It’s more nuanced than that. She would say ‘An unwise victim is still a victim, and a perpetrator is still to blame even if the victim was unwise’.

Her judgement of what makes a victim wise and unwise is what makes her a twat.

Just because she said she wasn’t victim blaming, doesn’t mean she wasn’t, just like people who start sentences with things like ‘I’m not racist but…’ invariably prove themselves to be racist. If she’s saying that women shouldn’t wear skimpy clothes to avoid being raped she is saying that women wearing skimpy clothes are, on some level, asking for it. Even though as far as I am aware there is absolutely no evidence that women skimpily dressed are more likely to be rape victims. She’s suggesting that a woman raped in skimpy clothes was being unwise compared to one who was fully clothed, even though there isn’t any evidence that clothes make somebody more or less likely to be raped. I don’t see how what she’s saying could be anything other than victim blaming? Just because she doesn’t want to admit it doesn’t mean she’s not victim blaming and doesn’t mean she isn’t being a twat around this issue.

She's right. Its sad but true that women have to be more aware and take measures to protect ourselves. It shouldn't be that way but sadly it is.

Maybe but I do struggle to see that. At worst with her it must be subconscious.

For me, I don’t wander around in public waving my phone around in case I get mugged. If I got mugged it wouldn’t be my fault though. That’s where I struggled last night and still struggle now.

The difference is if you have your phone in your hand and are waving it about it’s easier for somebody to run past and grab it out of your hand than it would be if the phone was in a bag. It’s easier to steal the TV from a house of the door is unlocked or a widow wide open than it is if everything is shut and locked. It is not easier to rape a woman in a crop top vs a hoody or in fishnets instead of joggers, clothing doesn’t make a woman easier to overpower. What is it about that you are struggling with?

Nothing about it being easier.

Just about taking precautions.

The fact is it doesn't matter what we wear if a man wants to rape someone he will, regardless of what she's wearing or doing. That's like ignoring all the child victims and male victims. It's misinformation to say a man rapes because he's triggered by certain clothes.

@Shakeylegs but you don't have to wave your phone around. It's enough to have it in your hand.Or in your bag. Do you never take your phone out in public?

Why is always the equivalence of something really ridiculous like waving your phone up in the air? When most phone thefts don't even happen in these circumstances.

The other thing is, you can hide your phone, use a safer bag, keep it in your bra, never have it out in public etc., hell even leave it at home . You can't lock away your womanness.

But how is not dressing in skimpy clothes taking a precaution? Is there any evidence women in skimpy clothes get raped more than women in a hoodie and joggers? If wearing skimpy clothes isn’t a factor in rape then choosing not to wear them isn’t taking precautions and choosing to wear a revealing outfit isn’t doing something risky, is it?

No dar papya 👀