Page 5 | Sensationalist reporting - whipping up resentment towards education bills for complex SEN placements

Unicornsunited123 · 13/12/2023 18:59

SpudleyLass · 13/12/2023 18:57

Not to mention that specialist schools are NOT ''playpens'' - the staff are generally trained in teaching children with disabilities, helping them if possible to access a curriculum, regulate their emotions and yes, life skills and hopefully a degree of independence, so you're not just insulting the children themselves there.

And once again, I was posing a hypothetical situation in whatever it might take for Mumsnet to appreciate how insidious the ableism on here truly is.

I was going to say this , my daughters specialist school is definitely not just babysitting 🙄

bellac11 · 13/12/2023 19:01

mottytotty · 13/12/2023 18:56

I think all that poster meant is often schools are babysitting children or providing respite for parents. It’s a poor choice of words but certainly not bad enough to warrant you suggesting legal action.

Show quote history

I agree. I didnt associate holding pen with animals, I associated it with babysitting/playpen

The reality is that a lot of residential settings are literally about containment, sometimes they're not good enough (as other posters have found) to promote any change or development but sometimes the child's needs mean that there will be little change or development.

You might say the same about elderly care homes, they're holding or containment positions too.

They're necessary but not some fantastic provision which is going to give some sort of magic quality of life if that just cant be attained.

LolaSmiles · 13/12/2023 19:01

There's an obvious difference between different opinions and making ableist comments that write off children with SEND, question their right to an education, and compare then to animals.

Plenty of people will hold different views to me on how to deal with the current terrible issues in provision and I would disagree but respect their views. That's a difference of opinion.

Spendonsend · 13/12/2023 19:02

PictureFrameWindow · 13/12/2023 18:47

I think it's to highlight the poor state of the market which has become dominated by private equity firms trying to make a buck at the expense of local councils.

I hope so. I was upsetting to hear a dubai equity firm was taking over a number of homes for children in care on a for profit basis. It just feels like vulnerable children shouldnt be for profit.

However private companies delivering public services for profit isnt new

ghostyslovesheets · 13/12/2023 19:02

bellac11 · 13/12/2023 18:35

I see it as shining a spotlight on how much is charged by these providers. Its not just SEN schools its also placements for children in care, its in the millions and councils are going bust because there is no alternative but pay it

LAs will soon stop offering specialist SEN placements at independent schools and force mainstream to cater for those needs.

I agree - lac of provision is a huge issue - often the children in residential SEN placements ARE children in care - under the children's disability team!

The cost of children's social care placements is eye watering - and places are so scares - even with a secure order you can be 40th in line for a residential place - then it's 3-1 residential provision (non secure) at £3000+ a week (which often fails to do it's job) - this is for kids at seriously high risk of CE/CSE and trafficked children - there needs to be a serious over hall of both provision and funding for local authorities - kids are at risk because what they need isn;t there!

ghostyslovesheets · 13/12/2023 19:03

LacK of provision - got LAC on the brain

SpudleyLass · 13/12/2023 19:03

bellac11 · 13/12/2023 19:01

I agree. I didnt associate holding pen with animals, I associated it with babysitting/playpen

The reality is that a lot of residential settings are literally about containment, sometimes they're not good enough (as other posters have found) to promote any change or development but sometimes the child's needs mean that there will be little change or development.

You might say the same about elderly care homes, they're holding or containment positions too.

They're necessary but not some fantastic provision which is going to give some sort of magic quality of life if that just cant be attained.

Show quote history

Problem is, mainstream was never going to work for my child either.

So where are families like ours supposed to go?

I reiterate, if the government does not want to appropriately fund a sufficient education and care proviso for my child, they're going to have to pay me much more to stay home with her and fund the provision she needs myself.

I also think if SEN children's education and health provision costs are up for scrutiny, then so is everybody else's.

cansu · 13/12/2023 19:05

It is undoubtedly true that councils do not have the budget to pay these high fees. My dd has been in a specialist school for about ten years at a cost of about 600, 000. Fees for her school are about 60,000.
I would have been happy for her to go to a LA school for children with ASD. However, the council only have one and it is for 50 children with high functioning autism. She is not able enough to attend it. The solution to these costly placements is to invest in more specialist placements. It would make sense to work together with neighbouring councils. It would make sense to create specialist units attached to mainstream schools. It would make sense to offer SALT, OT and behavioural support in these units and schools. This would bring down the number of specialist placements.

bellac11 · 13/12/2023 19:08

ghostyslovesheets · 13/12/2023 19:02

I agree - lac of provision is a huge issue - often the children in residential SEN placements ARE children in care - under the children's disability team!

The cost of children's social care placements is eye watering - and places are so scares - even with a secure order you can be 40th in line for a residential place - then it's 3-1 residential provision (non secure) at £3000+ a week (which often fails to do it's job) - this is for kids at seriously high risk of CE/CSE and trafficked children - there needs to be a serious over hall of both provision and funding for local authorities - kids are at risk because what they need isn;t there!

Show quote history

3k a week!!!!

Try 20k a week. I'd snatch your hand off if I could get a residential for 3k a week at 3-1 staffing!!!!

I dont have any offers for as little as 3k a week for placements. And thats just for 1-1, let alone 3-1.

Circe7 · 13/12/2023 19:11

There’s a documentary on the BBC called a Special School which is good in that it illustrates the severity of needs which many children attending the school have and how big an impact the school can have on the lives of these children.

There seems to be some judgement on parents for putting children in these schools on this thread. There are children who require 24/7 two to one care or who need specialised medical treatment several times a day or who are not safe around siblings (or their parents) due to challenging behaviour. The school in the documentary had a team of several nurses on site who attended several emergencies a week. The school had facilities and protocols to manage aggressive behaviour in a way which prevented anyone getting hurt and strategies to reduce this behaviour. It will virtually impossible to care for some of these children full time at home and they may have a very low quality of life if it was attempted. Some of these children will end up in long term residential care.

I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the funding model for children with severe needs but in the context of national budgets it’s ok if it costs £2.5m to educate / care for some children (though obviously an issue if too large a number have that level of need).

ghostyslovesheets · 13/12/2023 19:13

Yeah - that was a place that didn't understand what 3-1 actually meant - it's was a success, it's generally a lot more and not really a solution - just normal semi independent accommodation with extra staff drafted in - having to explain they need window locks and door cams and a door that LOCKS and that the child can NOT go out unaccompanied etc - because there is no secure placement

ghostyslovesheets · 13/12/2023 19:15

god I wish I could edit - it wasn't a success !

Unicornsunited123 · 13/12/2023 19:30

Circe7 · 13/12/2023 19:11

There’s a documentary on the BBC called a Special School which is good in that it illustrates the severity of needs which many children attending the school have and how big an impact the school can have on the lives of these children.

There seems to be some judgement on parents for putting children in these schools on this thread. There are children who require 24/7 two to one care or who need specialised medical treatment several times a day or who are not safe around siblings (or their parents) due to challenging behaviour. The school in the documentary had a team of several nurses on site who attended several emergencies a week. The school had facilities and protocols to manage aggressive behaviour in a way which prevented anyone getting hurt and strategies to reduce this behaviour. It will virtually impossible to care for some of these children full time at home and they may have a very low quality of life if it was attempted. Some of these children will end up in long term residential care.

I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the funding model for children with severe needs but in the context of national budgets it’s ok if it costs £2.5m to educate / care for some children (though obviously an issue if too large a number have that level of need).

I think fundamentally if people do not consider members of society who cannot contribute to taxes or work and disabled as less than or not deserving of education or a quality of life, then any amount of talk and debate is useless! There needs a be a fundamental agreement that disabled people deserve support which will be in money.

A famous quote from Mahatma Gandhi : 'the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members'. I think this sums it up for me.

Unicornsunited123 · 13/12/2023 19:36

I am aware there isn't a everlasting pot of money, but there needs to be complete overhaul on how the money is spent where it is going? How many private companies are profiting ? But I guess that's just one side obviously there needs to be a overall belief that the children or adults that need to money deserve it.

Benibidibici · 13/12/2023 19:43

Although i do think that some private companies and charities are treating children like 'cash cows' as well to be fair. There is such a gap in provision by the state that they can cash in on it.

This - £2.5m is a vast amount of money

EasternStandard · 13/12/2023 19:45

What are these companies?

Independent schools are usually charities so not for profit

BoomBhuna · 13/12/2023 19:46

Naptrappedmummy · 13/12/2023 18:08

Well it most certainly is not bad parenting. Because to put it crudely bad parenting has been around forever, and this is a recent rise. Interesting, perhaps there’s something increasing the frequency of genetic variations.

Show quote history

You want to blame vaccines don’t you? Why not just spit it out; it’s killing you not being able to say it I am sure!

Lifeisshortliveitwell · 13/12/2023 19:46

If it’s boarding school it’ll be whatever level of 24/7 care and teaching is defined in the EHCP. Plus a share of all overheads.

mottytotty · 13/12/2023 19:52

SoFuckingTired · 13/12/2023 08:52

AIBU to say that the purpose of articles such as this is to foster resentment towards disabled children/young people? Clearly I'm naive but I'm surprised and disappointed that the BBC would report in this way. Yes £2.5m is a lot, but when you actually read further this is a placement for very complex SEN/behaviour spanning several years

Council billed £2.5m for pupil with special needs.

but when you actually read further this is a placement for very complex SEN/behaviour spanning several years

In fairness to the writer, the second line of the article says it’s for a special needs placement spanning several years.

You make it sound like they’ve buried that point at the end of the article.

Unicornsunited123 · 13/12/2023 19:53

I don't think the level of needs has gone up at all I think it's always been same it just wasn't picked up as much as there wasn't as much awareness or understanding, kids were labeled as naughty , I'm dyslexic and have adhd none of them were picked up as a child! I still had it it still caused me issues I was just mainly blamed for them as being thick or my own fault!

Spendonsend · 13/12/2023 20:13

EasternStandard · 13/12/2023 19:45

What are these companies?

Independent schools are usually charities so not for profit

Only about half of independent schools are charities

This article is about care homes
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/26/england-private-childrens-homes-inadequate-ofsted

Revealed: scandal of England’s ‘inadequate’ private children’s homes

Private equity links and the pursuit of profit come with risks for children in the care sector, say experts

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/26/england-private-childrens-homes-inadequate-ofsted

EasternStandard · 13/12/2023 20:17

Whatever is paid now we can expect 20% increase on top of that comes in

How councils cope with that we’ll see

FishyTree · 13/12/2023 20:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Unicornsunited123 · 13/12/2023 20:30

My local council spent over £1.5 million in one year taking parent of SN children to court to deny support for their children, they lost I think number is like 97% of cases. Maybe local councils should maybe invest their money that they do have in actual support instead of fighting parents on denying support!

Unicornsunited123 · 13/12/2023 20:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

So who do u decide doesn't get an suitable education and who does?!