My child was removed from his first school nativity

[MrsH101]

My DC (with delayed speech and receiving SENCO support but not diagnosed with any ASD ADHD) was removed from his school nativity today after about 10-minutes.

We were pre-warned that if they 'were overstimulated or disruptive then they might not get through the whole performance' but we had good seats and could see him singing along, doing the actions and staying seated next to the TA. Not being disruptive in any way - on the contrary, it was delightful to watch.

So it was a shock and quite painful to see him walked out with another child after less than 10 minutes and we had to sit through the rest of the performance wondering what had just happened.

The question is, AIBU to speak to the school?

It won't change anything, he doesn't really care that much and in the grand scheme of things, him thriving and progressing at school is more important - and we want to foster a good relationship with the school who have worked closely with us since he started.

But as first experiences as parents go, it absolutely sucked and the whole thing looked completely pre-planned - he certainly seemed to be expecting it and thought he'd done everything asked of him.

So it made me wonder if there is any way we can have a productive conversation with the school to improve things? Or should we leave it and focus on the big picture.

if they expected him to kick off at 15 mins perhaps taking him out at 10 having been part of it without kicking off in front of other parents may have done him a favour. No harm in asking.

I'm sorry to hear that your job is so stressful and that you're feeling undervalued @EnidSpyton - I know teachers work very hard - but do you think you might be projecting a bit here? How do you know you are giving "the teacher's perspective"? The teachers in question may not feel the same as you and the OP hasn't said she is criticising them, just that she wants to understand and build better communication going forwards.
I'm not a teacher, but I did a public facing public sector job for most of my adult life and also have run children's activities as a volunteer for donkeys years. Believe me, I have got lots of experience of dealing with unreasonable demands and entitled and ungrateful parents, and I know how upsetting it can be, but I am really not getting that vibe from the OP's posts.
Yes, she probably is more sensitive to stuff like this than the average parent as her child has additional needs but isn't that to be expected? I don't have any children with additional needs myself but we have had many in our club over the years and I see how stressful life is for their parents and that lots of things most of us take for granted can be a lot more challenging. None of us gets everything right every time, no matter how experienced or well meaning we are and feedback from service users can be helpful even if it's not entirely positive.
Were the OP saying she wanted to write something like "You're a rubbish teacher and you victimised my child in your pathetic play" I would be right with you, but I don't think she is. She's a concerned Mum trying to navigate her way through what are uncharted waters for her and she has a reasonable question. I can see what you mean that immediately after the play might not be the ideal time to ask it, but I would be disappointed if teachers in an Early Years setting wouldn't discuss this kind of concern calmly and constructively with a parent like the OP at some point.
I think the actual play is almost incidental here in fact. The issue is really communication.

@EnidSpyton your post makes me quite cross.

The OP said
"we were pre-warned that if they 'were overstimulated or disruptive then they might not get through the whole performance'..."

This is not quite the same as what you said, ie,

"The OP had been told that if there was any feeling a child wouldn’t manage, that child’s performance would be shortened"

The former implied the child could be taken out if overstimulated or disruptive, not that his removal would be based on a teacher's feeling that he may become so.

I am sorry if you feel unappreciated, but, no, as the parent of a child with additional needs I frankly don't trust the teachers all the time. I have learned not to. They don't always know the children as well as they think they do.

Special ed classes within mainstream are often shuffled around to fit whatever else is going on (autistic schedules be damned). If a class teacher is absent the SEN teachers often provide cover etc etc.

I know you work hard but the children need to be the priority. Should a child who was not disruptive been removed in this case? My feeling is that if his parents who know him best didn't see any signs that he was in distress or about to meltdown then the chances are high that he would have been just fine.

Children with additional needs have a lot more shit to deal with on a daily basis than teachers do is my opinion. And a parent's job is to advocate for their child, not to give teachers the benefit of the doubt when they're concerned about something.

Just ask them. There will have been rehearsals so maybe they know something you don’t. There was a child in my sons nativity that after 10 mins started kicking the child in front and pulling at another child’s T-shirt while his 1 to 1 support tried to physically restrain him. It was pretty distressing for everyone involved.

And @MrsAvocet said all that a lot more calmly 😁
I'm actually surprised at how upset I was by your post @EnidSpyton. It was as if you were saying parents have no place questioning or clarifying the treatment that their child gets - even when their intentions are to be helpful and to work with the school to provide the best outcomes for their child.
OP's child was treated differently than the other children were and she has every right to have a calm discussion with the school about why they thought that was necessary. She should also be able to say whether she agrees with their assessment or not. They can learn from each other.

It's a reception nativity, not the RSC! The OP said her child was taken from the room, not that he left the stage- I'm sure she didn't expect him to be centre stage for the whole show. If a reception teacher responded to the OP asking about his removal with a smart arse comment about her experience in drama productions, they would look like a dick.

Thank you for all the thoughtful and helpful replies, it has given me much needed context and experience to be able to process this and decide how best to respond. Its our eldest and our first experience with a child with SEND needs and seeing the time people take to assist and reply is so appreciated. Thank you.

For background, we are both really proud of how DS did, he's done long (30+ minute) sing alongs like this before and hasnt appeared overstimulated or disruptive but didnt sing along to all the songs and we sensed was becoming distracted/bored. So to see progress and see him enjoy contributing was wonderful. We will be thanking the team and we will try to find out why he was taken out early (out of curiosity). He said he didn't need a wee but was taken out by a TA and we agree there may have had some crossed wires with the teaching team. Lesson may be then that prior communication needs to be improved.

And I did chuckle at the 'drama' teacher's reply - there's always one. Perhaps she was on both the vino and her high horse tonight. 🎭 😂 some lovely comebacks from other posters too. Indeed, read before replying - particularly if you're representing your profession. 😬🤣

Hi op.

I would definitely ask the school out of curiosity, if anything. It sounds like your son was doing really well but keep an eye out on how the school manages this with other shows etc.

My son has similar needs to yours. His teacher knows my son really well and he is unable to sit still and focus for a bit of time. To prepare for this they had some toys that he could play with during the performance. By his 3rd performance of the nativity, he started by sitting on the benches as he should, then during the performance he moved to the front (the TA was sitting on the floor in front of the children on the benches) played with some toys and by the end of it he was laying on his TA's lap. 😃

My son had no interest in singing along but he was still able to participate but in a way he would manage. Obviously, if my son was unable to manage this ie, noise, lights, being around lots of people I would be happy for the teacher to get him out. Maybe your son's teacher can find different strategies to try for future performances or events where he needs to be seated.

Thankfully in all my years of putting DC through school i have never come across a teacher like you.

To be honest I agree with the drama teacher - was your son removed early ie were there lines he didn’t get to say or was he just given a smaller role which he completed? It sounds like he wasn’t a key part of the nativity more than anything

You can talk to them about it, but please don't go in all guns blazing. Schools are increasingly just not doing stuff like nativity plays because it's becoming impossible to do without parents complaining, arguing and kicking off.

I agree that it might have been to make sure he had a positive and successful experience of being on stage.
He could have indicated that he wanted to join the other child who was led out with him.

If he was happy I would praise him and not talk about the removal. (except on the quiet to the teacher if you wish)
He possibly also loved watching the performance.

If they had already planned to take him out after ten minutes, based on experience on rehearsals, then surely they would have told the OP that they were planning on taking him out at a certain point, rather than saying he might not get through the whole performance. Seems to me that there's more likely to be another reason, maybe because the other child needed to leave, or then they thought he was going to get upset, in which case it would be helpful for OP to know what cues the staff were seeing that made them think OP's child was getting upset or overstimulated.

I love this.

Tinsel on ear defenders sounds like a sensory nightmare. I doubt they feel the need to cover up glasses and hearing aids with tinsel.

So you are that parent. It didn’t take much for you to become nasty, did it?

I didn’t say anything controversial in my posts. I was just giving a teacher’s perspective. I certainly didn’t make any personal comments about you.

You have felt the need to be unpleasant and unkind in response, which speaks volumes about how you approach your child’s teachers.

I am not saying a parent should never approach the school or ask for further clarification about decisions that have been made. Of course parents have every right to advocate for their child and especially where SEN are involved, close communication and mutual support is vital.

All I’m saying is that in a situation where the child is happy and had a positive experience, is there really any need to take things further? Why make your child feel there was something wrong in what happened when he feels happy and that he did a good job?

It’s maybe something to bring up at a parents evening after Christmas - a casual mention that you noticed he didn’t manage the whole performance, what are the teacher’s thoughts on that - but I wouldn’t ask the question right now. Perhaps with a little distance from it, you might be able to see that you are responding emotionally rather than rationally to a choice a teacher has made to ensure all children could be involved and enjoy the show.

I would also add that the teacher may well have intended to let you know but didn’t get the time or forgot in the run up to the performance. We’re not perfect. Some benefit of the doubt and understanding that most of the time you can trust us to have made the right decision because we have access to wider contexts parents don’t, would be much appreciated.

@MrsAvocet thank you for your kind and thoughtful posts. I appreciate your perspective. It has indeed been a long term. I’m currently in the middle of directing the school musical, the experience of which is certainly colouring my responses to this thread!

It’s always helpful to hear a different and measured view. Thank you.

I would guess that the TA was in charge of your DS and the other child so your DS was removed because the other child needed to be.
When DS was in secondary the SENCO tried to move DS down a set in Marhs as his TA would have benefited others in that class.

My devil's advocate hat would ask

• if he had no interest in the songs, then what was he getting out of participating?

Being inclusive can sometimes mean giving students an alternative to the performance, rather than having them sit there getting nothing from it.

Does OP sound like the all guns blazing type? Or does she sound like a loving parent who is navigating the SEN landscape for the first time, gingerly trying to figure out if her son has been treated unfairly or not?

I am 30 odd years ahead of the OP, in that I have a sibling with additional needs, and believe me OP's son will be treated unfairly throughout his life, in and out of school. She is going to have to advocate for him in a way most parents don't. She has every right to be curious (nb curious, not angry) about why he was taken out of this performance and any healthy, compassionate school community would take that question in the spirit it's intended.

which speaks volumes about how you approach your child’s teachers.

Give over

I didn't say anything controversial in my posts

@EnidSpyton OP was understandably concerned that her child may have been excluded without good reason and that this may not have been in his best interests. To reply suggesting that such worried parents are being "more than a little ungrateful and frankly insensitive" (to the teacher) is controversial imo.

It is possible to be very grateful for what a teacher does while still being worried that they're not getting things quite right regarding your child. I know OP's child doesn't have a diagnosis, but I have found over the years that people, including teachers, very often expect stereotypical behaviour from autistic children or children with SEN when in fact they are all individuals with very different capabilities. For example, I have found that people regularly assume my own child isn't capable of something, or wouldn't enjoy something, that he is capable of and does enjoy. Or assumptions are made as to why he's upset - "they don't like noise you know" - when noise isn't the problem at all.

Anyway, in this case, I think OP is right to have a conversation with the school. It could be helpful.

@Redskyorblue I completely understand what you’re saying and would be in agreement IF the child had seemed confused or distressed in the moment. However, they didn’t. There had clearly been a plan put in place that the child was happy with and the OP herself said he looked to be enjoying himself and was happy afterwards. Saying he was ‘removed’ from the stage implies someone intervened in the performance and took him off in the middle of things unexpectedly, when that didn’t happen at all. It was clearly a planned exit, during which the child showed no distress.

The teacher will have made a choice based on her knowledge and experience of the child in an educational environment - an environment the child’s parent is not privy to. What I took umbrage at was the parent’s immediate assumption that the teacher was in the wrong and had treated their child negatively, rather than taking a generous view and seeing it as a preemptive action the teacher had taken based on her experience of their child during the rehearsal process and with his best interests at heart.

If the child were unhappy, then this would be a different conversation. But he’s not. And my concern here is that by the OP making a big fuss over it, is that her child will now think they did something wrong and so cloud an experience that for them was actually a really positive one.

I don’t disagree that sometimes teachers can make assumptions and get things wrong. I don’t disagree that communication is always helpful. However the OP has already said her child struggled to manage with a previous performance and so there is no real reason to think anything was amiss here in the decision process of the teacher. They planned for the child to leave early, enabling him to enjoy the experience to the utmost. So genuinely I don’t see that there is a problem. From a teacher’s perspective, I do stand by my comment that it’s insensitive, after a teacher has worked really hard on providing an extracurricular opportunity that includes everyone and after which all the children were happy, to seek to immediately criticise. I don’t think that’s helpful and I think a conversation after Christmas would be better for everyone, if the OP still feels she needs clarity as to why the teacher felt her child couldn’t manage a whole performance.

What I took umbrage at was the parent’s immediate assumption that the teacher was in the wrong and had treated their child negatively, rather than taking a generous view and seeing it as a preemptive action the teacher had taken based on her experience of their child during the rehearsal process and with his best interests at heart.

@EnidSpyton I would worry that the decision wasn't made solely, or even mainly, in the child's best interests but made 'just in case'...more to protect the performance and other children's enjoyment, which I understand too.

I obviously don't know how he behaved in rehersals, but as I said I worry about stereotyping because I have seen it happen time and again. This child was not disruptive at previous performances the OP witnessed when he was younger, merely started to look bored after a while. This was not the case this year, he seemed to be fully engaged and enjoying himself during the show. He was sitting next to his TA, so I think a better approach may have been for the TA to exit with him if and when he started to show the first signs of boredom/distraction. Not to preemptively take a decision to remove him but instead be more attuned to his needs. More difficult I know, but possible with the TA being present next to him.

I appreciate the OP does not know her child in the school environment, but this is one of the reasons a discussion wouid be helpful. I also know that children's behaviour can vary enormously in different situations. Just because a child becomes distracted during school rehersals does not mean they will be bored or overawed on the big night. They might love it (my DC did).

Give him a chance is what I'm really saying I suppose.

If the child were unhappy, then this would be a different conversation. But he’s not. And my concern here is that by the OP making a big fuss over it, is that her child will now think they did something wrong and so cloud an experience that for them was actually a really positive one.

But the child would obviously have no idea these discussions were taking place. Why would he?

He is young now but will pick up on the fact that he is being excluded soon enough, believe me.

As regards the timing of the discussion I take your point. It could be a bit deflating for the teacher straight after all the hard work. January might be a better time to meet I agree.

I do understand where you are coming from @EnidSpyton both from my own experience and that of my daughter who is a dance teacher. She's just done a Christmas show and is exhausted and has put up with quite a lot of unreasonable behaviour from parents.It sometimes feels that parents don't respect people's professionalism if they teach things like sport and performing arts in the same way as they do, say, maths and science teachers. But there can also be some legitimate constructive criticism which will hopefully lead to everyone having a better experience next time. Sometimes it's really hard to pull those things apart when you're under a lot of pressure and every comment feels like a personal attack even if that wasn't the intention.
I think the OP has taken on board comments about likely reasons for the decision regarding her son and will approach the situation constructively. I also think you make a very good point about right now not being the best time to broach it. I hadn't really thought of it but you are quite right. Had the parent who made some suggestions to my DD about future shows sent an email next morning when she was sitting in her flat trying to sort out the huge pile of costumes that had been unceremoniously dumped at the end of the night it wouldn't have gone down well at all, but a week later chatting over coffee they seemed like pretty good ideas.
Hopefully lots of people have got some worthwhile thoughts from this thread.