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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you think the new £38K income visa threshold for UK spouse visas is fair?

936 replies

zendeveloper · 04/12/2023 19:32

It is set at the same level as for work visas.

Feels completely crazy to me, but then, I am also an immigrant (although the changes don't affect me), so probably too sensitive to the topic. Would be interesting to hear MN opinion.

OP posts:
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Oliotya · 09/12/2023 10:13

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 09/12/2023 09:49

Meet health and character requirements.

Oh, hang on. I wonder what those are?

The devil, as they say is in the details.

It's probably simethjng entirely reasonable, like the UK requires a TB test and has restrictions on criminal records.

EasternStandard · 09/12/2023 10:25

Financial thresholds are often used in other country’s systems

Would be interested in where pp is also

greengreengrass25 · 09/12/2023 10:25

mirrormiroor · 09/12/2023 09:02

I hope the Tories are absolutely annihilated at the next election. They are responsible for causing so much damage and division within the U.K. Brexit being the worst of all which ironically was all about Immigration and has since caused our immigration levels to get even more out of control because surprise surprise we need people and are now having to ask them to come from even further afield. Politicians should be more hones with people about the need and benefit of immigration in a country where we have a falling birth rate and aging population. It's the elderly who are loving linger with more complex health issues who are placing the most strain on NHS and social care. If people want to enjoy a decent standard of living they need to be able to compromise to make that happen.

But why is the birth rate falling in the first place?

It's the cost of the housing and stagnation wages and most of the social housing going to people from overseas however everyone pretends it doesn't

Oliotya · 09/12/2023 10:28

greengreengrass25 · 09/12/2023 10:25

But why is the birth rate falling in the first place?

It's the cost of the housing and stagnation wages and most of the social housing going to people from overseas however everyone pretends it doesn't

That's statistically false. If you're going to spout divisive shit, at least be right.

greengreengrass25 · 09/12/2023 10:30

It really isn't

Oliotya · 09/12/2023 10:35

greengreengrass25 · 09/12/2023 10:30

It really isn't

Care to back that up with data?

newnamethanks · 09/12/2023 10:38

Of course it's not fair. That's the point of it.

CormorantStrikesBack · 09/12/2023 10:59

There was a 3.1% fall in uk birth rate from 2021 to 2022. It’s been dropping since about 2010 so while a 3% fall might not sound like much over ten years it’s been noticeable.

CormorantStrikesBack · 09/12/2023 11:02

Though possibly looking at this you could say the early 2000s were above average and we’re returning to a base line?

Do you think the new £38K income visa threshold for UK spouse visas is fair?
Arafina · 09/12/2023 11:09

greengreengrass25 · 09/12/2023 10:25

But why is the birth rate falling in the first place?

It's the cost of the housing and stagnation wages and most of the social housing going to people from overseas however everyone pretends it doesn't

You don't see as many large families these days, childcare, food, utilities, in fact everything is so expensive now that most young couples can't afford too many children, that may be part of the reason the birthrate is falling

WhenLoveIsDone · 09/12/2023 11:40

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 09/12/2023 09:48

It seems like a beautiful country with lots of opportunities and a wonderful care system. No wonder the poster has such strong feelings about the UK where everything is horrid and she suffers her life away.

I'd be moving there tomorrow if I only knew where it was.

Why the sarcasm? My husband is English and we have a house here. We helped his shielding elderly dad through Covid. Offspring (English) are in school here, have friends and piano lessons and have bedrooms-- are settled. My daughter happily attends the same school her father did. We work here. English is our native language which makes life here significantly easier for our child with learning difficulties than it would be in most other places. Our pet is here. Our shared life is here. His old friends are here. Mine occasionally pass through. Most importantly, my family would like stay together under one roof rather than be divided by thousands of miles at the whim of your government. Are these good enough reasons for you?

Chardonnay, indeed, the devil is in the detail, and in how it is applied by amoral officials. IMO immigration departments in all countries include some very special specimens. My husband did the health requirements for a visa in my country when he joined me when I was completing my professional degree. It amounted to my childhood GP inspecting his vitals and penis, and a lung scan to see if he had TB. That was more than a decade ago. I don't know if it's more stringent now. Character requirements AFAIK pertain to criminal convictions.

The genuineness of the relationship is the thing that can be unpleasant to prove. It can be difficult for couples who haven't been able to cohabit continuously because of visa difficulties. Sometimes they want to delve into your private messaging history, look at naughty snaps-- really prurient and invasive stuff. There were some stories that rightly caused outrage when they hit the news, especially where the foreign spouse was Filipina, Ukrainian/Russian or someone else that Immigration agents may have had racist preconceived notions about.

Funnily enough, the UK didn't seem to give a damn about whether our relationship was genuine when we applied for the visa here.

There have also been disgraceful stories in my country of visas denied to medically-compromised children of relocating foreign specialists, or to refugees. Gay couples may struggle to prove the length of their relationship where the foreign partner's country doesn't allow gay marriage yet. I don't claim our immigration system is perfect... far from it. I'd do away with borders, myself, if I could.

My country is New Zealand. It has many, many problems of its own, including a housing market that makes yours look sane, and a shiny new coalition government which is sharpening its knives for the poor, but in this particular instance... concerning its own citizens' (and residents') right to a family life... its policy is not as fucked up as the UK's. I don't actually know of any country whose policy is, though.

Yes, if I'd known back then how unwelcome I'd continue to be made to feel by people like you, and how the Home Office would up their attacks on families like ours, we'd never have come. But no regrets. I am glad we were there for my FIL when he really needed us, and that he got to know the GC better.

Papyrophile · 09/12/2023 12:01

NZ certainly used to have very strict immigration rules and quotas. We considered moving there and buying a business in 2008, and did not fulfil the requirements. Also decided it was too far from aged parents.

WhenLoveIsDone · 09/12/2023 12:06

Not for spouses and families, which is what this thread is about. I'm sorry you couldn't move there, though.

Papyrophile · 09/12/2023 12:43

Sadly, I only have a Kiwi Fairy Godmother!

CrashyTime · 09/12/2023 14:09

Papyrophile · 08/12/2023 20:18

The recent increase in NMW that takes effect next spring and brings min wage to £11.44 per hour will mean that my chef DS with several years of five star kitchen experience is going to be earning £0.06 pence per hour more than the newest hire? He's not going to help that novice chef learn his trade and improve his skills. The going rate for a chef de partie (who runs a section of the kitchen but is not a senior) is £11.50 per hour, and the shifts are 11 am to 11 pm.

So what, a skilled chef needs to chase a pay rise or go elsewhere if they are so pissed off they wont pass knowledge onto new-starts because they earn nearly the same, people need a pay rise, commercial property has tanked because people wont let go of the WFH meme and the last thing the government needs now (especially an un-elected ex-banker PM) is for defaults on residential mortgages and BTL loans!

CrashyTime · 09/12/2023 14:12

Spoke to someone on a visa the other day, only been here a couple of years, they are not worried about this as they are a hard worker prepared to do an extra job, they agreed though that it disadvantages people with young children and that maybe that is the point of this?

WhenLoveIsDone · 09/12/2023 14:35

It is going to depend on when their visa comes up for renewal whether they have enough time to satisfy the new requirements or not. The spouse visa has to be renewed about halfway through and you have to prove that stable income for a set period of time before applying.

Weegie91 · 09/12/2023 15:20

CrashyTime · 09/12/2023 14:12

Spoke to someone on a visa the other day, only been here a couple of years, they are not worried about this as they are a hard worker prepared to do an extra job, they agreed though that it disadvantages people with young children and that maybe that is the point of this?

The problem is getting the initial visa. The non-UK spouse may be earning £250k a year, but unless their British spouse earns the threshold, they don't qualify. After you cross that first hurdle, I think most people would be fine.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · 09/12/2023 15:25

nationallampoons · 04/12/2023 20:06

I think it's very fair. I also think spousal visas should be restricted and be cancelled if they divorced within 10 years

I've seen too many people burned

What happens if they have children, will they be banned from living in the same country as their child?

BouncingJAS · 09/12/2023 17:57

@greengreengrass25

Birth rates in a country need to be looked at in two ways:

  1. Women (in general) are postponing having children to work (as a necessity and/or to develop a career)

I would argue that the interval for fertility has moved to 27 - 37 now in the UK (based on a normal distribution so 80% of births to women occurr then)

So what is impacting the ability of women to have children at those ages?

  1. Cost of childcare (number one driver) in UK
  2. Cost of living in general (housing included)
  3. Lower wages*
  4. A tax structure that discourages having more children (for higher earners we have cutoffs at £50k and £100k, and lower earners we also have cutoffs at 2 children).
  5. Fertility rates (globally) have been dropping due to environmental factors (due to pollution)

*This is being exacerbated by a higher tax burden now as graduates need to pay 9% above £25k to pay back their student loans. Graduates enter the workplace facing high debt loads and crushing taxes, so having children is the last thing on their minds. They tend to mostly save up for buying a house first. Having a family is a dream for many at that point.

These trends can be improved with adjustments to the tax structure (universal child benefit) investing more in childcare (nurseries), and by simplifying planning permission (so more housing gets built such as social housing).

User123456713 · 09/12/2023 19:43

@greengreengrass25 Migrants aren't eligible for council/social housing, as they a) not been here for long enough and b) in the case of most workers, will have a "no recourse to public funds" on the visa.

UK has a housing crisis because we don't build enough houses and what we do build is too expensive, even the so called "affordable ones" they are just a few % cheaper than open market.

izimbra · 09/12/2023 20:20

The benefits cap in the UK is set at about 22K a year for a couple, so I assume the government thinks that at a pinch a family could live on that.

The scheme is stupid and cruel, will cost the country money and damage the wellbeing of children with a foreign parent. It's particularly unfair to British women and mothers because as a group they have lower average earnings than British men. It will result in families being separated and British women with foreign spouses being more likely to need to claim universal credit and help with childcare.

But the cruelty is the point. The Conservatives have NOTHING to campaign on other than performative harshness towards immigrants to pander to people who have been left in despair by falling standards of living after 13 years of Tory government, who are willing to blame immigrants for everything.

AnneElliott · 09/12/2023 20:50

SpideyMum22 · 04/12/2023 20:53

Completely agree with cancelling them in event of divorce in the future. A very close friend married a man from Egypt who left her literally the day he got his British Passport after pretending everything was fine and they were happy. He never worked a day while living off her but was suddenly able to work enough hours to meet the threshold of 18,600 to bring his new Egyptian wife over (who it turned out had actually encouraged him to marry my friend in the first place to use her). Sadly we saw many similar cases

This is extremely common. I used to work in immigration and saw this a lot. British women would be completely taken in and convinced the 20 year old Turkish waiter was the love of their life.

British men viewed it as 2 years of sex on tap before the wife moved on and they got a new one. Absolutely grim.

Papyrophile · 09/12/2023 21:02

@izimbra , one of my favourite songs!

But I disagree otherwise. It's not all performative harshness (although it is a factor showing off how hard you can be). There is a largely quiescent conforming element in the UK, who work hard and want their kids to do well and to be left alone to get on with life. The 'just about managing' and the 'hard pressed middle' to borrow politicians' phrases.

But when those people see young men arriving on rafts being accommodated in hotels they can't afford for even a few days of holiday, for months, at taxpayers' expense, and then having them lech at their teenage daughters coming out of schools without anyone being able to do anything to disperse them, they feel powerless and become angry at immigrants.

It is individuals becoming angry. It's visible right across Europe, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France: come the EU elections next May, all bets are off. You don't have to think skin colour or religion are relevant, but they are visible symbols of 'outsider'.

Where as we taxpayers are actually much more pissed off at the fat idlers next door coasting on benefits and doing odd jobs (usually badly) for cash in hand, while dealing weed. The UK's informal economy has been allowed to run riot get out of hand.

User123456713 · 09/12/2023 21:35

But when those people see young men arriving on rafts being accommodated in hotels they can't afford for even a few days of holiday, for months, at taxpayers' expense, and then having them lech at their teenage daughters coming out of schools without anyone being able to do anything to disperse them, they feel powerless and become angry at immigrants

It was middle aged builders (uk white citizens) that leeched at my DD when she went back to her Halls a few years ago, forcing her to take a longer walk back home.

The majority of the UKs 68m pop. have zero interaction with the migrants crossing the channel, its racism, pure and simple

e.g i live rurally, we rarely see anyone who isn't white british, yet there is outright hatred towards migrants and the better off hate them more than say someone on NMW & that hatred is stirred up by people like Farage, Boris, Braverman etc etc

Same with friends of ours in France, they see no migrants in their Pyrenean town, yet due to people like Le Penn, detest them.

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