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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To tell Dsis back off about our dad’s house??

50 replies

Whybobbins · 02/12/2023 10:00

Went out for family dinner with Ddad, and dsis and her DH.
Ddad is a hale and hearty 70, widowed, owns his own modest house. He’s retired and doesn’t have much in the way of assets at all other than the house.

DSis brought up the subject of dad’s hse and about how he needed to sign it over to me and her to avoid future potential care fees. She’s said this before - when Her DH dad died the sibs ended up paying some of his care to avoid losing the family home -aka their inheritance. They all have plenty of money and it all seemed a bit grabby to me.

this visibly upset dad as he doesn’t want to be thinking about ing being stuck in a care home etc bit she went on and on.

Theres loads of reasons why he shouldn’t IMHO - and dsis and I have good jobs, enough money, and quite frankly neither of us NEED the money from his house anyway. Plus, if he can’t live independently there are other options, like live with me, live at home with help, assisted living etc.

seeing her today and going to tell her to leave him alone about it! But worried it will cause a row…

YANBU - it’s his money, he can do what he likes and it should be used to make sure he has a comfortable future

YABU - she’s being sensible and planning ahead.

OP posts:
Original poster
Whybobbins · 02/12/2023 10:08

We’re in the U.K. - I know in other countries expecting to pay towards your own living costs if you need care is completely the norm! DBIL is the one driving this I think, because normally is a kind and generous person. Not someone trying to get the state to pay for everything.

OP posts:
3peassuit · 02/12/2023 10:08

I’m around your dad’s age and would be furious if my girls started to tell me what to do with my home. Most 70 year olds are more than capable of their own financial planning. A 70 year old could be round for another 20 years or more. YANBU.

Original poster
Whybobbins · 02/12/2023 10:09

DSis is normally kind, thoughtful and generous I mean. DBIL and his family are deffo more about the $$$

OP posts:
Bluevelvetsofa · 02/12/2023 10:10

Surely it’s deprivation of assets anyway.

Changingplace · 02/12/2023 10:10

You can’t just sign over a house for that reason in the UK, it’s seen as depreciation of assets and if your dad did need care then yes the house would need to cover it, your sister is not only grabby but also on shakey legal ground in what she’s suggesting.

Needanewnamebeingwatched · 02/12/2023 10:14

We were away on holiday a few weeks ago, and there was a guy on there with his great great niece. He was 96 still living in his own home and was totally self sufficient.

So at 70 it's a bit early to talk of splitting his home etc

Sahara123 · 02/12/2023 10:15

Grabby and also will be seen as deprivation of assets. If he signed it over then he’d have to either move out or pay rent at the going rent to you . It’s not that simple or indeed legal .

Sahara123 · 02/12/2023 10:15
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poetryandwine · 02/12/2023 10:21

OP, to the best of my understanding this id deprivation of assets so will not fly (as well as grabby and undignified).

But I doubt a load of MumsNetters will sway BiLs family. As you sound financially secure it might be sensible to consult a solicitor on this point, and get a letter from them that you can show.

MenopauseSucks · 02/12/2023 10:24

If I understand correctly the 7 years rule is IHT only.
Councils will look back further than 7 years for deprivation of assets - they're pretty hot on this.

Again, I might be wrong but if signing the house over to you was seen as deliberate deprivation of assets then you & your sister would have to give the money to pay for care.

I've also heard that, once the house was signed over, your father would have to pay you & your sister the correct market rent for living there.
You would both have to declare these payments on your tax returns.

Again, I'm not a lawyer but this is just things that I have heard from people searching of ways to avoid care fees.

So I think your DSis & DBiL should sod off as your father is perfectly capable of dealing with his own affairs.
It could also turn into a right legal pickle!

RudsyFarmer · 02/12/2023 10:27

I guess they’ve been stung so this is in the forefront of her mind currently. If I was your dad I’d make it very clear that I was planning on doing an equity release in the house and using the money to fund a fabulous retirement. Then watch her head spin.

Anisette · 02/12/2023 10:31

The main argument against this plan is that it just wouldn't work. As people have pointed out, councils will refuse to pay if people have deliberately handed over assets to avoid care home fees. The quickest way to shut your sister up is give her chapter and verse on that - https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

PinkiOcelot · 02/12/2023 10:34

I do know of people who have done this. I’m not sure how but it is possible I’m not going to lie, but I did wish that we had done similar when my mam’s house was sold and the money used for care.

Velvian · 02/12/2023 10:35

It's unlikely to be pursued as deprivation of assets if the dad does not currently have care needs, in our LA currently, although this could change in the future. LAs may get braver at challenging these trusts.

Morally it's wrong and awful for your dad. Definitely speak to your sister. Your mum could have left her share of the property to the 2 of you, but she didn't do that. Your dad may not wish for the property to go to his children. He may wish to use its value to choose the care he would like, should he need it.

I would encourage your dad to reply to your sister that he does not intend to leave the property to the 2 of you.

Original poster
Whybobbins · 02/12/2023 10:39

‘Surely it’s deprivation of assets anyway.’

yes, this is my understanding - I googled it after the convo last night. Inheritance tax isn’t an issue as it’s all well below threshold.

i don’t trust DBIL to do the right thing if something happened to DSis, or if they or me and DP divorced dad’s house would be part of the assets to be divided up. I think it leaves him vulnerable. unnecessarily vulnerable. Plus he’s only 70! I think they think the 7 year inheritance rule thing applies here and it doesn’t.

And the truth is me and DSis already discreetly help dad, pick up tabs, pay for holidays, paid for some house repairs, I arranged for his oil tank to get filled while he was away because I knew he’d make a fuss if I offered to pay. So this tightness now is bothering me.
If dad needed round the clock care that we couldn’t handle then we would pay for it all anyway.

OP posts:
aswarmofmidges · 02/12/2023 10:39

PinkiOcelot · 02/12/2023 10:34

I do know of people who have done this. I’m not sure how but it is possible I’m not going to lie, but I did wish that we had done similar when my mam’s house was sold and the money used for care.

But would your mother have had the same care , the same choices , if she didn't have her home to pay her way with ?

GabriellaMontez · 02/12/2023 10:44

What did you say?

Because I think you should be making all these points very clearly if she brings it up in front of him.

I'd want to be very clear that I wasn't in agreement, that it's illegal and premature.

Original poster
Whybobbins · 02/12/2023 10:44

‘But would your mother have had the same care , the same choices , if she didn't have her home to pay her way with ?’

this is what I wonder - DBIL and his sibs have huge property portfolios, loads of money. One is a millionaire. Yet they allowed their elderly mother to be in pretty bog standard care paid for partly by the council and partly by them. As little as they could get away with. And kept the ‘family home’ which is now being sold off anyway as none of them want or need it.

OP posts:
OhComeOnFFS · 02/12/2023 10:44

I think I would say, "This doesn't sound like you at all. Is this BIL's idea?" and let her answer that.

She's got a bloody cheek talking about this given he's only 70. If I were your dad I'd be livid.

Scarbsbeach · 02/12/2023 10:45

Your Dad could go on for another 20 + years. How is he going to afford his old age if he gives away his main asset, then has to pay you two a market rent to stay on in it? Maybe he has lots of savings or private pensions, or maybe he’s got to manage on his State Pension.

If he needs help, will he be happy for you two to care for him, or have the basic few minutes/care each day available, or go into a Local Authority chosen home? Do you two want to be landlords and pay maintenance costs etc for a house you can’t live in? Will you two look after him if he needs help?

Theres an awful lot more to this than just “saving the house”.

You should tell him to see a Solicitor and take impartial legal advice, get his Will sorted and set up Powers of Attorney at the same time. Your sister is seeing £ signs, not your Father’s welfare and happiness into his old age.

Muddybooties · 02/12/2023 10:45

He’ll get done for deprivation of assets - he is 70, not 50… 50 was the time to be talking about this.

Most people only spend about 18-24months in care before they die…. When you take into account that you’d get charged capital gains on the property signed over to you (second property)…. What would be the point??

Yes there are care in the community costs in England but the home isn’t taken into account and the amount of savings discounted is about to rise to 100k…. So again, what is there to worry about.

You May lose more money and your dad face criminal charges signing the house over - don’t do it…. Obviously seek legal advice.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/help-from-social-services-and-charities/financial-assessment-means-test/

Crepesuzetteforone · 02/12/2023 10:45

As others have said, this could end up costing you a fortune trying to ‘keep’ the money.

The rules around this are very strict.

as you say, sounds like he’s healthy and if he does get ill would be able to stay with either of you.

LongLostTeacher · 02/12/2023 10:45

While I understand that it would be difficult to see the family home sold to pay for care, it is not your sister or BILs place to decide this for your dad. I would be horrified if DH suggested this to his parents and they are older than your dad. And the idea of saying this to my parents who are approaching 70 makes me squirm. It’s his asset and his home and his care. She needs to be careful that it does not come across to your dad that she is eyeing up his home and belongings and waiting for him to pass.

TeenLifeMum · 02/12/2023 10:46

My granny did this (advice from a solicitor rather than grabby relatives). She gave half her home to my dm (it was the half dm inherited when my grandad died) but dm didn’t make her sell obviously. It meant than when granny went into care and the house was sold, dm got half and granny got half. It meant she was able to ringfence inheritance for dm but still had money for care.

OhComeOnFFS · 02/12/2023 10:47

The thought of your BIL being willing to let his own mother go into a nursing home that's not very nice just to give him and his siblings money they don't even need makes my blood boil. Older people need protecting from people like that.

Not just older ones, too - if your sister divorced your BIL she should be prepared to have him argue over every penny and hide whatever money he could.

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