To be filled with panic about WFH culture becoming a thing of the past?

[themusingsofaninsomniac]

prefacing with please read the context before blanket responses 😊

I am stressing away as I tend to do lately on the same topic. I have WFH since the pandemic, with the odd day or so in the office I am lucky to have full flexibility with.

I have Autism. I also have ADHD. The combo together is quite the clusterfuck to navigate as a newly diagnosed female. Essentially the pandemic shone a light on so much and I'm so grateful that it enabled me to seek diagnosis, as much as it's an ongoing struggle.

From working remotely since the beginning I've never felt more stable and successful in my career. I was able to secure a promotion into a field I'd never have had the confidence to try in a non-remote setting in the first place, and I've been fortunate to earn a fair bit more as a result.

I feel completely at ease in my own environment and with the ability to tailor things to what works well for me. Having that commute time back has helped my wellbeing, as has having my lunch breaks in my own home. I am in a routine that I feel helps my mental health and the challenges neurodiversity brings me massively.

My current employer is great but they are the type of company that won't be around forever unfortunately. And from a lot of media and on here etc, it's becoming obvious that things are shifting to either back in the office or a hybrid with a good half your days expected in the office.

This absolutely fills me with dread. I feel like it would turn my world upside down. I'm sure people who don't relate to this will think I'm being dramatic but change and environments outside of your own control are so so hard especially once you've had several years of the opposite.

I guess I'm just wondering where this leaves me. I still have a few friends who WFH but not in my industry. I'm not sure if there would be more flexibility for me, but I also worry about how that will reflect towards my colleagues and I don't want to get anyone's back up. I guess I'm catastrophising that if I need to find another job I'll never be able to maintain what is working so well for me.

Not sure what I'm seeking here to be honest - reassurance maybe or just help to navigate this and whether it's best to be upfront with new employers from the start, or whether that might reduce my chances of being hired. I've been told I don't present as autistic, or typical ADHD but I guess the mix of both means it's a lot more blended. Either way I have generally got good feedback from interviews so it would likely not be known unless I was transparent.

I'd especially like to hear from someone in a similar boat too, if there is anyone? Probably not at twenty to one on a weekday though I imagine 😅

Thanks to anyone who has read this to the end as I know that got wordy!

You are SO right. Fifty years ago we never head about ADHD and neuro-whatever. We just got on with it.

I think it is a fine line between doing things better than we have done in the past, ie recognising, diagnosing and managing ND, and at the same time getting ND people to realise that they're large parts of working life that suck for everyone.

Nobody actually likes commuting (scraping ice of the car at 615 in the morning in the pitch black this week was miserable!).
Very few people thrive long term working in excess of 40 hours a week
Most people find the prospect of working until they are 67, 68 or 70+ (for the younger generation) daunting and depressing
Many many people need to decompress, in a way that is appropriate for them, when they come home from work

This isn't neurodiversity, this is life.

It's also not neurodiversity to:

1. Hate small talk
2. Find your colleagues annoying
3. Find the office distracting and irritating
4. Feel sick with nerves having to give a presentation
5. Not want to talk to anybody
6. Worry about how you come across in meetings

No, its called life which we all have to negotiate rather than picking and choosing

A simple reasonable adjustment that neurotypical people could make for both autistic people and these recent graduates is to write the unwritten rules down.

That only works for basic stuff - such as clean up your desk before you leave, don’t leave crumbs and and sticky stuff for the next person and so on. It doesn’t work whatsoever for soft skills and negotiation skills. These are the sorts of things that people can’t learn from others when solely working remotely and interacting vis Teams.

The poster above hit the nail on the head ‘know when to hold them, know when to fold them’. Most high level meetings are like a game of poker really, you have to duck, weave and pivot according to things transpire, you can’t teach someone how to deal with this via writing ‘rules’ down. Doing this remotely is a complete pain in the rear end if working remotely, particularly if working as part of an ‘alliance’ or when training more junior staff how to step up to this. A lot relies on subtle facial cues or gestures you give to others (really hard, near impossible, when doing remotely), and you can also pick up subtle signs if the ‘other side’ is flagging or with eye contact they start making with each other. More junior staff really need to learn this by shadowing senior staff in person.

More junior staff also learn more when in the office with senior staff on an ad hoc basis. Such as in interaction with someone who jacks up by means of being PA, they learn by example when watching these spontaneous interactions. This is all stuff for which there is no rule book for ‘unwritten rules’ as you take a different strategy and approach on assessing each individual you deal with and it’s a learned skill.

Actually it's good to be able to pick and choose what we want out of life. I'm for anything which gives more people more choice rather than having to put up with shit they hate.

Great posts on this thread from @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

I don't agree with this at all. While it is true that sometimes both ND and NT people may have to suck things up and get on with it to the best of their ability, what is too much for a ND person might be hugely different than to a NT person.
My friends son cannot suck it up and get a job. He just can't. He doesn't have the learning ability or capacity to work. While someone like me may be much more capable, there are many things I just could not do and would result in me probably screaming and crying while hitting myself if i was forced. (I have not done that for years as I am aware of my capabilities now)

I’m not ignorant of ND conditions but like I said because I wasn’t aware before of how people with ND coped with working in an office and then WFH then naturally I wasn’t aware of the effects on them and how businesses can make it easier for them.

@Ffsnotaconference same answer to you.

I don’t need to be attacked for wondering about these issues.

I also come from an era (I’m now 52) where in most companies ND in the office wasn’t highlighted and HR measures put in place to help. As I said earlier (I think) of course Covid 19 flagged up these issues and many people felt able to flag up how wfh/hybrid helped their ND and mental health.

But as I also said, I think, that doesn’t help the issue which OP’s OP said that more and more companies would like their employees to be fully present in the office.

So his only option is to either get a fully WFH job so he’s accommodated or he claims benefits?

A friend’s son who is ND works in a local M&S and has done so for years, another who’s also ND in a Tescos where he’s worked for years. The first person would’ve loved to have worked for the local railway station but though he can read he can barely write so that job was out for him. They’re both supported either by family and/or housing benefits because their jobs mean sadly they couldn’t afford rent by themselves.

Do you think nobody ever gets to pick and choose their job, then?

We seem to have had a spate of posts on this thread claiming that people can't just do this and that, when they quite clearly can. You just don't like that particular aspect of life, which is an entirely different argument.

Fifty years ago many people with "neuro-whatever" were institutionalised or died. I'm sure you'd love to go back to that time.

There is a big difference between picking a job/career that works to your strengths and weaknesses, and taking a job and then later trying to renegotiate the T&C's, and being put out when it doesn't go your way.

That's not to say that at a organisational level that employees, managers and unions shouldn't strive to make the workplace a better and fairer place to be, but at an individual level expecting everything and everyone to mould around you is unreasonable.

Have you got proof/records for that?

And especially when it’s known that ND people tend to mask if they can’t cope in certain situations? And no, I’m not saying that’s right at all nor am I saying they weren’t institutionalised.

That's not what the poster said, though.

And even if you think it's unreasonable for people to ask for adjustments in the workplace, it quite clearly is something people can do. They may also have the option of picking and choosing jobs on that basis too. Your disapproval is a different point, and people should really be honest enough not to confuse the two.

Nobody actually likes commuting (scraping ice of the car at 615 in the morning in the pitch black this week was miserable!).

So why do it if it’s not necessary? Let’s support the option to WFH where it is possible.

Very few people thrive long term working in excess of 40 hours a week

So let’s not do that then. let’s support PT and flexible working where possible. Let’s support the 4 day week.

Most people find the prospect of working until they are 67, 68 or 70+ (for the younger generation) daunting and depressing

Perhaps It wouldn’t be so daunting and depressing if they spent less time doing unnecessary travel, sitting in miserable offices, worked fewer hours and more flexibly and had more time to
pursue personal relationships and interests outside work.

Whats wrong with making people’s lives happier and more pleasant? Why do things have to be kept the same if they are making people miserable and there is a better way?

For sure. And by micromanaging HR teams who need something to do, and by middle aged men with SAH wives who don't like having to spend time at home.

(the men not liking to be at home, not the wives, though I guess there are wives who want them out of the house too!)

It takes me significantly more time to remember where I was in a task if I am interrupted because I have poor working memory due to my Dyslexia. What's a minor irritation for someone neurotypical (office noise and interruptions) prevents me from working properly at all.

Your attitude snacks of people who complain that dyslexic candidates get extra time on exams, thinking that it's an unfair advantage, completely ignoring the fact that the reason for the adjustment is because it takes us far longer to process written information in the first place.

I have changed jobs because of the attitudes of people like you.

https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/the-missing-generation/

Love how you're not demanding proof from the poster who claims that fifty years ago "nuero-whatever" conditions never existed (and I'm guessing still don't on their eyes".

Getting his first "proper" job working in an office around other people has literally transformed our son's life! We're so glad he was never "labelled" and given special treatment!

He was always quiet, very few friends, never went out socialising, hated making presentations or answering questions in class at school. We hoped he'd change when he went to Uni, but sadly it was 2020, the Covid year, and he spent most of his time in his campus flat because the lectures/tutorials were all online, exams were online, campus buildings, shops, etc were closed. Uni opened up in 2021 and 2022, but he never really "found his tribe" and spent most of the 3 years in his uni flat, mostly alone, never joined any clubs/societies, etc. Never had a girlfriend. He showed all the signs of being ND etc.

Just started his first proper job three months ago, different city, too far to commute, etc. So he's renting a flat there. Job is hybrid and we were worried he'd be lonely (again) in his flat, either working or studying (it's a graduate scheme training role for professional exams). Knew no one in the city. He was worried and apprehensive about going into the office regularly, wasn't keen on having to meet people, not keen on having to make presentations, not keen on having to go to their London head office every month or so for "big" meetings/presentations involving hotel stays and train travel etc.

In reality, he absolutely loves it all. It's like someone flicked a switch. He's literally never in his flat. He's out with new friends (made at work), going to the pub, pub quizzes, meals out with work colleagues, loves the work trips to London, got his first girlfriend through work. By going out with work colleagues, he's met ever more new friends via "friends of a friend etc" so his social network is ever expanding at the moment! Never works from home unless he has to (i.e. bus driver strikes etc). Starting in the "real" World of work, meeting a diverse group of people of all ages, leaving behind the immaturity of school and Uni, has changed him for the better. There's not even the hint of him being ND anymore! He was NT all the time, but could so easily have been labelled - he was basically just waiting to find his tribe - he didn't find them at Uni, but he has found them through work, and the more people he's meeting and more social things he's doing, it's just increasing his confidence on an almost daily basis.

Nothings wrong with it. I work part time, because it is better for me, however I have had to accept that my career has stagnated as a result.

Whilst WFH can work brilliantly, there are lots of examples on this thread of the downsides of WFH, especially for people new in roles, or where there is an expectation in the job role that they will mentor incoming staff, or with difficult to manage (work shy) staff.

Things are often more complex than the individual.

There are also lots of employers who don't like change, which is part of the problem too, but you can't simply ignore the employers needs in favour of the individual, ultimately they are the ones paying the salaries.

There are some right Mr Gradgrinds posting with Victorian attitudes on here. The race to the bottom mentality that seems to delight in work and life being as miserable as possible for the maximum number is why progress is so slow. It is nastiness for its own sake masquerading as some weird virtue signaling.

@basculin I haven't had time to read the whole thread. No I am not demanding proof from that poster as I haven’t seen it.

You’ve actually got no idea of my situation whether I’m ND or not (I don’t think so, think it was more PTSD) but I actually find you and some others quite insulting and hurtful assuming that I’m some hard faced bitch who doesn’t care about neurodiversity at all. Which is very far from the truth. So I’m out. Can’t reason or talk with some people.

Good morning OP

I too have ADHD and Autism ( late diagnosis ).
I worked in Community pharmacy for over 20 years, during covid like you, I was able to change to remote working for the NHS.
I have found it much less stress full ( having my own autonomy helps ), the socio-dynamic issues I had before are now non existent.
But the NHS is also asking for more F2F work and phasing out WFH.

I love my job now- do not want to leave, but I may have to look for a fully remote job for my sanity.
Honestly it was not until I Ieft my last job, that I was able to know how much stress and strain I was under before- prompting my diagnosis.
if I had not taken a moment to breathe- I would never have been able to see myself for who I really am....

Dont worry OP- be your true authentic self- when applying tell them you are neuro-divergent ( dont be afraid)
Must companies are actually clued up enough to know how loyal, honest, diligent, thorough, detailed and meticulous us Neuro-divergents can be.

my point is there are many positives to this xx
hope this helps you x

Nothing wrong with working only 4 days per week, BUT you have to accept a reduction in your earnings of 20%! It's unrealistic for people to work fewer hours but still expect the same pay.

Likewise, when it comes to career progression, etc., working part time, means you have less experience, so your progression, promotions, etc will inevitably be slower than someone working longer hours who is gaining more experience because they're doing more work, simply because they're working longer hours!

Likewise, when it comes to career progression, etc., working part time, means you have less experience, so your progression, promotions, etc will inevitably be slower than someone working longer hours who is gaining more experience because they're doing more work, simply because they're working longer hours!

Very sector specific.

As an example, I've worked in charities where a lot of roles, including quite senior ones, are PT due to funding. While there's nothing to stop people who've previously worked FT going for these, and sometimes they do, in practice the role being PT tends to act as a filter because lots of people need the FT wage. It reduces the pool. In that situation, the long term PTers may progress more quickly because they're more able to access the promotions than someone who wants or needs to work FT.

The answer to nearly all these questions is, it depends.