To think Europen governments need to respond to immigration?

[Finlesswonder]

So the Netherlands is going to have a far right government.
Sweden has moved to the right.
Finland has shut its borders.
Countries that have traditionally been liberal are hardening and irrespective of the many issues listed its to do with immigration.

Ireland has seen violent protests last night following a series of stabbings.
In the UK we obviously had Brexit.

I think governments need to start responding to voters feelings on immigration as if they don't we will continue to see a general slide to the right in Europe, when actually these countries aren't right wing: it feels like a single issue is distorting the entire political landscape?

They were on a boat. They weren't invading anywhere.

Or perhaps you think we should shoot down the planes carrying the 1.2 million immigrants who "invade" the UK each year?

What like when masses of Europeans invaded Native American, First Nation people, the Aboriginal and maori people’s countries? It’s not invading when the only way you can claim asylum is to actually be present in the country.

Surely the 30 billion for universities doesn't go to the government? Doesn't it stay in the university sector?

The economic impact is spread across the entire UK, with international students making a £58m net economic contribution to the UK economy per parliamentary constituency across the duration of their studies. This is equivalent to £560 per member of the resident population.

https://londoneconomics.co.uk/blog/publication/the-benefits-and-costs-of-international-higher-education-students-to-the-uk-economy-analysis-for-the-2021-22-cohort-may-2023/

A lot more info in this-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b928cc1e5274a4242d1adf3/Impactintllstudentsreporttpublished_v1.1.pdf

They won't like this. The narrative of intl students taking their RG places whilst speaking very little english is much more palatable.

For goodness' sake

Worth £30 Billion to the UK economy.

They employ staff, who pay taxes and spend their money with other businesses that pay taxes and employ staff who pay taxes.

The students spend their money with businesses that pay taxes and employ staff who pay taxes.

Universities don't benefit 'the wealthy' they benefit everyone in the UK, although of course that is concentrated around the universities themselves as that is where the direct spending happens.

I also personally quite appreciate the cancer research and the qualified people that come out of it.

The fact there are structural inequalities is a different issue.

Everywhere has resources stretched to breaking point. We've had 13 years of Tory underfunding.

I just haven't fallen for the age-old tactic of pointing at immigrants instead of pointing at the government.

Immigration does need to be thought through, but immigration is not the cause of, for example, lack of GP appointments. That is the result of an ageing population + underfunded NHS + GP resignations.

In both of your first two posts you have talked about what voters feel/want.

Has it escaped your notice that not all voters want the same thing?

I wonder if how the UK/EU handle immigration needs to change?

Thinking of the Gulf countries like Dubai, Qatar etc, their citizens are vastly outnumbered by immigrant workers (across all stratas of society, I'm not just talking about labourers in construction), but they're pretty strict about not letting that change or negatively impact their society.

People are there strictly to work, or their dependents. If they lose their job and can't find another, or reach retirement age, they are expected to return to their original country. Nor to their children have a right to remain as adults unless they too get employment and visas in their own right.
Commit a crime and you get deported once you've completed your prison term.

There is no welfare available for immigrants.

Would this system be considered too harsh in Europe?

That's a shit system though! Immigrants deserve to be treated like, idk, proper humans? Lots of them are workers, and even those that are not deserve a base level of humanity.

That's a shit system though! Immigrants deserve to be treated like, idk, proper humans? Lots of them are workers, and even those that are not deserve a base level of humanity

Can you explain how what I've described is not treating someone as a proper human? Bearing in mind people move there by choice due to better financial opportunities than are available in their home countries, including plently of British people.

British people tend to go to the Gulf states for the tax advantages don't they?
Is that what you are proposing?

@SomeCatFromJapan - I think EU law effectively stated that welfare or benefits had to be received by EU nationals. You couldn't discriminate.

Since the UK is no longer a member, it could do something more like you describe, that is benefits or other systems prohibited, or no possible indefinite leave to remain or nationality application permitted. The UK is quite open on this, but it doesn't have to be.

@MidnightOnceMore

The fact there are structural inequalities is a different issue.

I disagree. The structural inequalities pervade everything. Nothing is immune. Nothing is separate from effects of the gaping chasm between the the rich and the rest. Everything in public life, and in the fabric of our society, is poisoned by inequality.

The rich, and to a lesser extent the wealthy middle class, want migration because they want cheap labour. Cheaper employees in public services mean lower taxes, disproportionally benefiting the better off.
The rest are disadvantaged by undermined wage levels, competition for housing and services, and chronic insecurity.

This is incorrect.

You have the pie, then you have how the pie is sliced.

I want a fairer economy. But shrinking it first is a bad idea. Just look at Brexit. When you make the country poorer, it hits the poorest hardest.

A closed economy doesn't bring greater wealth, because it only matters what you can buy with your wages.

I should add @Yetmorebeanstocount I agree inequality poisons everything.

I just don't see immigration as the cause of inequality.

There are countries in Europe with higher immigration and lower inequality. That's a pure policy choice.

@MidnightOnceMore

Immigration doesn't cause inequality.
But inequality does dramatically affect how people respond to immigration, and how they vote as a result, which was the OP's topic.

When the economy shrinks it hits the poorest hardest - yes because the rich have more power to protect their own interests, i.e. protect their wealth and incomes. The poor have no protection, except the power of community and mutual help.

The answer it not to continually grow the economy via immigration, as that is just a pyramid scheme. (No to mention that it is impossible to have infinite growth on a finite planet).
The answer is to work towards a low-growth or no-growth economy coupled with widescale re-distribution of wealth via tax and benefits.
Can't see any politicians going for it though, as they are part of the problem.

Because it 'others' people, which dehumanises them. It tells immigrants that they will never be part of society. They are lesser. They're only there for what can be squeezed out of them, with no care for their needs or well-being. As for sending their children away once they turn 18, well that's just evil.

Very well said. It's also the case that their stone-age attitudes are brought with them and a large percentage of the guilt for the treatment of women brought illegally into the West lies with their fellow countrymen.
If you invited someone into your home and they abused your hospitality then you throw them out, the countries should do the same. If they are making the host country unsafe then they go back and face whatever turbulence they 'escaped' from.

So how exactly do you propose that we could determine which people have stone age attitudes and which don't? Which ones are violent, and have no respect for women etc etc. Or are you just going to work on the assumption that everyone from certain countries fits that stereotype?

I disagree and I'll tell you why. Firstly, I have never voted Tory in my life - never have and never will. I've seen the damage that party has inflicted on society. My parents are working class through and through but fortunately for them, they are of the baby boomer generation, where working extremely hard in factory jobs for decades enabled them to buy their own homes at a young age and work their way up the property ladder, progressing to bigger houses in better areas. They both came from abject poverty so to achieve what they have is remarkable and a point of pride imo. Now to my point. They are both retired and live in a beautiful semi rural very middle class village. Do they have problems with getting a gp appointment? Nope. Problems with anti social behaviour? No. Over subscribed schools? No. Lack of community cohesion? Again no. But for those of us who are not of their generation and are stuck in poor areas despite our best efforts to better ourselves, these are the realities we live with every day. The houses are hmos, crime is everywhere, the streets are litter strewn and filthy...It's dangerous. All around There is division. I don't see harmony and different communities mixing. No one knows their neighbours. The council might wheel out the annual mela as a display of the diversity in the area, but it's smoke and mirrors, it has zero impact on unifying people. There are too many people living in too small a place. And it's the poorest of society that suffer the most. That's why I asked the question - for those who welcome mass immigration, where do you actually live? Because it's all very well having principles but only if you can afford to.

@MidnightOnceMore I agree.

yep, let's follow the example of autocratic governments with human rights violations coming out of their ears lol. that's the way forward.
would you also like us to start taking away immigrants' passports, make them work in unsafe conditions under duress and cover up their deaths? around 8000 people died building the world Cup stadiums in doha.

I think that's what people are proposing. A sort of apartheid that allows only people from certain countries to enter. Course by that logic Sunak and half his cabinet would not be here.

@MoonLife I can only refer you to my previous answer, which is the government should be a) processing claims quickly and b) providing the resources our public services need.

We all heard the attitude problem in parliament when Stockton was apparently called a 'shithole' by a government minister.

And then you start to get personal with this type of stuff: where do you actually live? Because it's all very well having principles but only if you can afford to. - this is not a culture war between you and me.