Am I being unreasonable to think there is something seriously wrong with the family court system where an ordinary family has to go to these extremes to protect their own child

[millymog11]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67425080

Its almost as if the family court system is set up first and foremost to claw money back from ordinary people who do not qualify for legal aid (i.e. 99% of people) and second priority is to dodge some kind of expensive human rights esoteric question (the rights of a father/biological parent) above all other priorities. The rights of the children come way way down the pecking order.

This parent was convicted and was in prison for peodophilia.
But the innocent parent still has to pay out of their own money to protect their child.

I honestly cannot get my head around this. I know it is not equivalent but the courts must spend enormous amounts of money (rightly but that is not the point) in banning people from driving a car due to substance abuse but the barriers to blocking a dangerous adult from having contact with their own children seem ridiculous.

@ImNotAsThinkAsYouDrunkIAm I’m adding my perspective, as someone who has been to family court.

You’re coming across as angry as you seem to have single out my comments then posted multiple responses directed to me. Like I said my perspective is just as valid as yours.

I really do not understand why people keep coming on and saying no surprise etc etc. The system WORKED in this case. It might not work in all cases, but it seems an odd case to use as an example as to how broken/unfair the family court system is

You quoted me first, I just replied :) Of course you’re welcome to your perspective, I’m just pointing out that discussing miscarriages of justice by the family court (which I am sure do occur) might be better on a thread that isn’t about the exact opposite. Because in this case the mum asked the family court to prevent the dad ever asking for access, and they agreed. No miscarriage of justice. I can’t see what all the outrage is about to be honest, in this particular case. Dad already didnt have access, and the family court has now prevented him from ever having access. Job done.

I shall raise points pertinent to this discussion where ever I wish, lovely. I’m not sure why me highlighting that the system doesn’t work is a contentious issue.

The reason why conviction of an offence doesn't automatically lead to loss of parental responsibility is because there's always exceptions. Someone mentioned murder, so how about (playing devils advocate) a mother who kills her partner after years of terrible abuse, she's given mitigation but the court can't completely absolve her of her crime - does she loose contact?

Courts need to be involved because situations arise where they need to look at mitigating circumstances. In most cases a Child Arrangement Order plus a non molestation order is sufficient to stop unwanted contact from behind bars plus on realise, the convicted parent would then need to convince the courts they had changed and were safe after release, my social worker friend who I've been chatting to earlier about this said it's highly unlikely it would be allowed, and she's got 25 years experience.

It’s not unusual for criminal courts to impose a sexual offences prevention order on paedophiles which prevents them from having contact with any children except their own. This is an issue for the criminal court not the family court. And it certainly doesn’t mean they have contact with their own children without any oversight.

I have been involved in cases like this where the paedophile father has then made an application to see their own child and each time the family court has made an order prohibiting any contact.

I have never yet been involved in any case where a convicted paedophile father has ever had any contact with their child, and I’ve been in this field professionally for over six years.

I have never seen PR removed completely but I’ve seen it restricted to the extent that the parent cannot have any contact with the child or school or health services. It is quite difficult to get PR removed but there are plenty of protective orders that can be made which have the same effect.

@Ohthatsfabulousdarling that is so horrid what you went through and your siblings to be targeted. Even worse that the court further abused you all even with solid evidence. I hope the best for you and hope that he is away from you now. So terrible the courts failed to protect you. Hi

I have two family members who are convicted child sexual abusers. One abused his own daughter. She did, for the most part, go NC with him (15 at the time), but I don’t believe he was ever ‘banned’ from contact with her.

The other abused a child in his ex wife’s family. He was not prevented from having contact with children (except overnight visits could only be with parents permission) after his release from prison. In fact, we had no idea about his past for many years and after he had considerable (mostly supervised) contact with my dc. When we eventually heard word and submitted a Sarah’s Law request, we were told a disclosure wouldn’t be made because he had a ‘right to privacy’ but the police advised we stopped contact (obviously we already had) and said we risked SS involvement if we didn’t, even though they wouldn’t make a disclosure. We eventually found the details about his convictions and imprisonment through other means, so there absolutely was information to disclose.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that the system doesn’t place the needs of children ahead of these abusers, sadly.

Because a parent of a child who’s other parent is convicted of a crime against children really shouldn’t have to be seeking so kind ofjustice through the courts. Given the nature of his conviction, surely the system should have ensured that there was no contact with his children? Why did one parent have to spend £thousands to achieve what was logical in the circumstances?

Thank you very much. We were very lucky that eventually he lost interest in seeing DD before she turned 5 years of age.
He hasn't bothered us for the past 10 years, which has been a relief because its meant DD has been safe from him.
Incredibly upsetting however that when we really needed the law to protect her, it didn't.

I wish that the legal system was more focused on ensuring children's safety over the rights of the non resident parent, when they are already proven to be a risk.

If I understood correctly, he already had no contact. This was an application to remove parental responsibility

It probably should be fairly difficult to completely remove PR.
(as in this case)

Miscarriages of justice as mentioned by PP are a separate issue but when you have a court system that's over stretched and underfunded, a police service that's over stretched and underfunded, and social services that are over stretched and underfunded, you will end up with problems.

Depends on how you define 'worked' though. The system worked, but the mother and her parents were left 30k out of pocket. Had they not had the time and resources it may well not have worked, as evidenced by posts from PP above. A system that only works for wealthy people doesn't work at all!

It didn’t have to cost 30k, it would seem. It costs a few hundred to bring a prohibitive steps/ CAO, I think? And the father self represented, according to the article. So it’s unclear from the article why it cost 30k. Presumably because she was asking for a removal of parental rights, rather than a standard CAO / prohibitive steps, so needed professional representation?, but again, it’s unclear from the article why it was felt that it was necessary to request removal of parental responsibility when there are other protective orders that have the same effect, as a pp who works in the field explained.

I’m really glad this story is provoking such debate. The only reason that family courts can now be reported is because journalists have pushed and pushed for transparency for years, and have finally been given a morsel of that through this short-term reporting pilot at a handful of courts.

To persuade the judiciary to open up the family courts was one thing, persuading a news editor to allow you to spend days in court reporting on an anonymous case is quite another. It takes real dedication and a lot of working for free. The reporters (mostly women) covering these kind of cases are, on the whole, doing a remarkable job. If I had written that story (and I didn’t, but I have written similar stories) then I’d be a bit gutted to come on here and read people critiquing my writing style. Some of these reporters covering the pilot are on Mumsnet.

Anyway, some food for thought.

on R4 news , they insinuated that having reporters in the court for this case may have concentrated the judges minds in coming to the correct conclusion, that a peodophile shouldn’t have access to children or parental rights.

The court won't spontaneously restrict PR without an application being made. That would be open to all kinds of abuse and miscarriages of justice. Please bear in mind what you are recommending is authoritarian in the extreme. You might think that's ok for certain situations but welcoming authoritarianism in general is not a good thing for society.

That's quite the insinuation.

It is a cheap price IMO, as I didn't have to completely Barr all contact for my DC but certainly needed a lot of work to protect them in the CAO.

It cost me multiple court appearing during which I needed a barrister, sometimes at £10-15,000 a day, and ended up being well over £100,000. I will be in debt to my dying day but the DC got the outcome they needed which was priceless.

We had umpteen court hearings and some I represented myself. Only one of those was successful outcome which drove me into the arms of proper legal help. You go in feeling confidently prepared but the mind goes blank on the day. It's one of those times you think of everything you should have said when you're driving home.

I had a ridiculous amount of court appearances in total, though some were normal divorce proceedings. But the actual financial remedy is two-part and the CAO takes three hearings to get to the final one. And that's not counting the mini-dramas between that: my ex's solicitor was quite trigger happy when it came to threatening court and dragging everything through there at a huge cost to both sides.

To remove parental powers would be long and drawn out, and my solicitor fee per month was often at least £5k for more routine court stuff than that. The divorce dragged on for a year so you can imagine the cost that racked up. Solicitors cost between £250-£400 per hour and so a lot of work behind the scenes it would seem!

So for someone to only spend £30,000 is getting away with the finances quite lightly, though she should not have had to pay a penny in her situation and the trauma to her and the DC would have been unbearably difficult. I believe I shouldn't have had to have paid in mine either and believe I'd have had a cheaper outcome if family court was not so hidden. It makes everyone less culpable and feels more of a whim and fancy, and the lies that are accepted and not looked into is breathtaking. I’ve lost all faith in the system even though we got a good result in the end.

We had different judges too, and interesting to watch how they reversed and others decisions. The whole thing is a sham.

Not enjoying the victim blaming on this thread as my former friend has arrested for child rape offences and grooming. Our entire circle are trying to blame ourselves for not noticing.. these men are highly manipulative people who can deceive anyone they choose.

By 'the government' , i guess you mean the tax payer?
The tax payer wasnt the one who chose to make children with these excuses formen.Thatis all on the mother! why should i pay for her failure to do due diligence!

What due diligence would that be then @charlotte361 ? Do enlighten us or are you just victim blaming?

Yes the Government should use taxpayer money to protect children.

Ignore the apologists and victim blamers. The men who should be blamed are the ones who lie and charm their way into their victims lives.

@millymog11 you are right to feel like that about the family court system. I have first hand experience sadly working with the court system. About 5 years ago I had the fight of my life trying to save my two sons from my sex offender registered EXH.

long story short, in 2010 he was caught with child abuse images and convicted (got caught cos he tried to rape a 16YO) obviously l left with my children and got social services involved etc. Well, he didn’t get time in jail a bloody pathetic probation order - he made my life hell, trying everything to get access to the children and the courts ALLOWED contact albeit in a contact centre…this was enough for him to use manipulation tactics etc. I moved away from where I was living to protect the kids but he found us, God knows how!

Anyway, I had child protection orders, full custody orders etc etc and when I had to phone the police it was fucking pointless cos “he has parental rights” 🙄

He kidnapped my sons in 2018 and honestly I had to fight regardless of all the orders and knowledge of his convictions - he took my boys across border where laws are different so had them for THREE WEEKS until a sheriff with some common sense ruled in my favour and i got my kids back. I had then a 10 hour round trip to get my children back.

and for the comments about having an inkling - my EXH showed no wrong intentions ever, was an normal a guy as you’d ever known! Our whole life was turned on it’s head I can assure you and even now my children are still suffering as a result.

Give your fucking head a wobble! God help you if this ever happens to you! Your a disgrace