Need advice, is this abusive or should I leave it?

[Unsure05]

What would you guys do? I’m not one to comment on other people’s parenting, I’m not perfect, I don’t know enough etc etc. But my older sister has a 4 year old girl. She is on the stricter side of gentle but likes to follow gentle as best she can. Her husband is what he calls a “disciplinarian”. He had an abusive childhood, is an ex veteran and doesn’t really do the emotional side of parenting. There’s the odd thing I’ve heard and seen where I’ve thought it was a bit harsh, or too much shouting or not saying very nice things but never anything I would want to comment on. But I spent the day with my sister yesterday and she told me something that happened as if it was a funny anecdote but it’s really concerned me. Basically her daughter is going through a stage of breaking her toys/ripping her books etc and she purposefully broke a necklace of hers and tried to sneak it into the bin and lied about how it broke. This was apparently the straw that broke the camels back with her dad and he took all the toys out of her bedroom, made her stay in there with just a chair and her bed and wait in silence until her mum (my sister) got home from work which was about an hour. When my sister got home it was silent and her husband said what has happened and when she went upstairs her daughter was just sat on her one chair silent and cried and my sister resolved the issue but found it funny how extreme it was and that she was just sat with nothing. It baffled me and my heart broke for her. I work in a nursery and I know if we got told something like this we would have to question it with the parents or write up a cause for concern based on what the child had said that could be kept on file incase a pattern of these things arises. So I’m also concerned that my niece might say something to her reception teachers and my sister might not see how serious this could be taken. Would you say anything even though it’s basically questioning the parenting??

Well maybe your sister needs to give her daughter a box with paper to cut up, or sticker books.. and find alternative child minders if she can’t change her husbands discipline style..

I wouldn't have handled it this way when my kids were that age, but I really don't see the massive issue here. Why is it so "extreme" that the child had to sit with nothing for a while? She was in her room, inside the home, with parental supervision.

Agree with @Singsonggsu

A four year old is old enough to suffer appropriate consequences of their poor behaviour. If you deliberately break your toys, you won't have the privilege of playing with them any longer.

Could this destructive phase that the little one is going through be spawned by her parents’ parenting style? Is she taking things out, her upset or frustrations, on inanimate objects?

I think her father’s style of discipline is awful. It’s not the SAS and he was harsh to inflict that on a four year old. Home should be her safe place.

As for your sister being lighthearted about it, I hate to say, but she’s as bad as him.

I see trouble ahead.
Let it be you she turns to when she’s a teen and pushing the boundaries because with a dad like hers I think she’s going to need a softer more understanding touch from someone non judgemental that she can trust.

Yes, I agree and I would be concerned. I cannot imagine doing this to my child, and if I came home to that I would be fuming. I'm not sure what you can do but maybe explaining to your sister that from your outside perspective it's crossing a line might make her have a think about it in future. More than anything it's just cruel, lazy parenting.

If your DN smashes things surely there have to be consequences some quiet time seems appropriate. It certainly would not be abusive.

I think it’s way OTT for a tiny four year old child and I think you should be vigilant OP.

If you think your sister risks being reported to Govt, you should be warn her. Explain a little about the requirements and lack of discretion.

I’m surprised by some of the responses here; leaving a child sitting by themselves for an hour in an empty room? It’s a four year old child. It’s much too far.

I would say to her that it sounds over the top and if she told school they’d be calling her in for a meeting

An abusive childhood is not justification to be a strict parent I'm the reverse I'm quite a relaxed laid back parent I want my son to enjoy the childhood that I never could

Never let your childhood conflict your parenting

I'd be questioning why a 4 year old is destroying her toys and then trying to hide the evidence.

I'm no expert but it looks like she's taking her frustrations out on her toys. How often is she subjected to such strict parenting?

I think you're right to be concerned. You should tell your sister that if a child in the nursery where you work disclosed anything like what your niece experienced it would raise concerns and would most likely be investigated.

To those saying she's old enough to understand consequences to her actions... I agree but the punishment given out here was too heavy handed for the age of the child.

It's vile abusive behaviour to subject a four year old child to that treatment & I would be reporting it myself

I'm really surprised by the answers here. If the child is being destructive it may be as a response to problems in her upbringing. This punishment seems cruel to me.

I think your niece is trying to tell her parents something in the only way a 4 year old knows how.

An hour is far too long. The usually recommendation for time outs is 1 minute for every year of age, so 4 minutes for a four year old. The difference in discipline in and off itself can be an issue. Her parents need to agree, and have a consistent approach, something way less than an hour, but more than her mum's. Children need consistency and boundaries to feel safe, this child doesn't have that.

Wrecking things can be an issue of impulse control, which the child can't fix on her own. She needs to be guided and taught to manage her emotions better. Hiding the broken things can be an expression of worry or even fear of the consequences. I don't know many 4 year olds that would stay siting on a chair for an hour with nothing to do. The fact she did that makes me think this either isn't the first time or she's scared of her father.

My DC don't break things on purpose, but they do try to hide accidental breakages from their Dad (my ex) and it's because they're scared of his reaction. Obviously that's at the more extreme end of things, but I would be worried about how he managed to make a 4 year old stay on a chair for an hour with nothing to do.

An hour is far too long and I don't think using her bedroom as a place of punishment is particularly wise, either.

At four, she's hardly going to sit and think through carefully what she's done for sixty minutes.

I'd be keeping an eye on the whole situation as it may get worse.

Thank you all. I never meant to say she shouldn’t have had any consequences but something more appropriate, if she can’t keep a ripped book nice then take the book away etc, if they use time outs then a much shorter one would have been better. I’m glad I’m not going crazy and think I will say something. I’m close to my sister and really hope it won’t be taken the wrong way. I don’t know how often these things happen but if I broach the topic from a professional point of view with concerns it might not seem like a full frontal attack on his parenting maybe

If she can't keep a book nice, she should have all of her books taken away. Reintroduce them, repeat as necessary.

Natural consequences like these are good, they make sense to the. child and show an immediate and direct consequence to her actions. The removal of every singpe toy is probably a bit over the top, but if he'd stopped their that would have made a relateable natural consequence for her actions. Then a 4-5 minute time out maybe. But I'd be more in favour of discussing the consequences of her actions and when and how she could earn her toys back.

Yes I agree. I’ll involve this in the discussion too

Talk to your sister about your concerns.
The parenting is extreme but is consistent and it was a consequence of her breaking things. I am on the fence.

It depends whether the father shouts abusively when angry or whether he is calmly warning and carrying out logical consequences..

I’m not sure as I don’t see them all together all that often as we live about an hour away from each other. I’ve heard him be strict but perfectly reasonable, I’ve seen him deal with things in great ways but also he’s shouted at her to leave him alone, he’s commented on her hanging around us for attention in a derogatory way when I’ve been to visit, they started making her put her hand up at home to talk so she would stop interrupting etc. All stuff I wouldn’t do myself but not exactly abusive so I would never say anything just because of a difference of opinion, but this one hit differently